Forum: F-22A Raptor

Yep, F-22 Raptors are flying Noble Eagle missions Very Happy

!

http://www.f-16.net/news_article1604.html

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Thanks Parrothead, right here on the forum, missed that one!

locum wrote:

Sofar, what we know is that systems like Pirate, Front Section Optronics (FSO, Rafale), Sniper XR have a published range of approx 150 km / 81 nm. Ground based IRSTs like the Thales Sirius, Mirador, Zeiss HAWK EO System have a range from 40 km to over 50 km (22 - 27nm). Typhoon pilots tell us that they can detect the F-22 between 8 -80 km (4.3- 43 nm).......

A:
Typhoon hasn't incorporated Pirate IRST into its airframe formally up to now, and how could the Typhoon's pilots detect the F-22 with a still non-existent equipment last year ???

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/ ... R0512d.htm

Some Typhoon aircraft have development versions of IRST on board Toan, that is probably where that statement, if true, came from. The DASS is not yet fully integrated.

Last edited by toan on Feb 09, 2006 - 05:20 AM; edited 1 time in total

According to the information I have known up to now, Raptor still hasn't been deployed in Europe or UK.

Therefore, the only two Eurofighters which are possible to have had the expericence of excercising with F-22 should be the two fighters that RAF sent to USA last year.

And if my information is not wrong, then that two UK Eurofighters shouldn't have PIRATE system up to now.

Everyone talks about finding a Raptor through the waves it makes in the air. Well, I found out you can actually do it. http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-033-DFRC.html
You need an astronomical telescope and the thing has to be going faster than Mach 1. Otherwise, it won't really show up on the Schlieren. I've used these things and they're pretty cool (the one we used was really small). So I now state that it is possible. Try deploying it in a battlefield circumstance, HAHA that's a good one. Basically, this is cool to observe aircraft in flight, but it wouldn't be able to do squat on the battlefield. There's to much sky and this equipment is too sensitive.

toan wrote:

According to the information I have known up to now, Raptor still hasn't been deployed in Europe or UK.

Therefore, the only two Eurofighters which are possible to have had the expericence of excercising with F-22 should be the two fighters that RAF sent to USA last year.

And if my information is not wrong, then that two UK Eurofighters shouldn't have PIRATE system up to now.

You could be right TOAN, however, whether they carried PIRATE IRST or not would never be public domain information. The aircraft sent out to the US for testing were sent for just that..testing. There is a good chance that PIRATE is flying. Officially, PIRATE trials were finished in September 2005 and is due to be fitted to Tranche 2B airframes. Pre-production equipment flying before full production kit is available is pretty common.
We will have wait and see how well the system works, we could be in for a long wait! True capabilities are usually classified.

Well I don't have any quotes for this cerebral discussion but I do have some background data/experience in F-22 vs. large numbers. This was all sim stuff back in 93, but the scenarios were 2 Raptors vs 16/32 SU-27+ threats. No SAMs, sorry. What I experienced was (without talking nums) dying wholesale at ranges I couldn't believe an AMRAAM could be used at. Stealth + Speed + high order sensor integration = holy S!@#. And the only time it got down to a "visual" fight, the F-22 just "left", like a rocket!
Sure you can fire SAMs - but you have to acquire, track, and launch, without this high-speed, stealthy target altering course significantly-otherwise you're out of energy. Sure if you can get umteen missiles from multiple locations all in simultaneous attacks, and the F-22 stays straight line - you get the kill (maybe). But guess what, the Raptor doesn't have to wander in nearly as close as an Eagle does to get a target solution (More Speed + higher alt = big stick). Okay bring more guys into the fight. 8 to 1? 10 to 1? Okay, can any other country buy 8 or 10 times the number of F-22s with (fill in your favorite alternative fighter here)? That's why the USSR had to bag the arms race-they couldn't afford it. And if you can't shoot at or before the F-22 does, how many guys are you willing to sacrifice to get to that merge? (If the F-22 allows it)
I still remember the Block 15, heaters only "Osterizer" and all the other dance steps we had to use to get to the merge with BVR capable Eagles. Someone (many "someones") is going to have to be awfully motivated to "take one for the team" in that scenario.
Does that mean F-22s aren't vulnerable to loss of SA leading to getting splashed. Nope. But if we're talking basically equal pilots in this scenario, I think I know what side of that equation I'd like to be on.
Zeke
IYASSSEYAS

An important factor I haven't seen mentioned a lot is "tactics". The Raptor's attributes of stealth, speed, maneuverability, and avionics/sensor fusion are unmatched, no question about that. Equally important, it is HOW the Raptor Drivers use these attributes to their maximum in the Raptor that puts it in a league of its own.

And to this point, no Raptor Driver will say they have unlocked the full potential of what the F-22 can do, instead just having a good foundation.

Zgiglio touched on simulations.....

DERA here in the UK did an infamous simulation a couiple of years ago. It has been covered many times so I won`t bore you ! DERA was the Uk equiv` of DARPA.
In the simulations, they put the F-22 at a kill ratio against the SU-27 and derivatives at 10:1 in favour of the F-22.

Now, many people have rubbished these figures. The DERA people are no dummies. They factored in all future possible/announced upgrades to the various opposing aircraft, the results didn`t change much, they also factored in various weapons carriage, AWACS support, datalink systems, general SA of the opposing forces...etc..etc... They also factored in some of those systems not working as advertised. Including those on the F-22. Probably the effectiveness of various ECM, ECCM ESM, etc..etc..

Now, impressive you may say?

The problem with simulations, against a real world situation is that the enemy has a terrible way of not doing what you expected of them They also sometimes field systems that you knew nothing about, employ tactics that are NEW to you. Tactics that you never thought would work. They sometimes find weaknesses in your equipment that you never thought you had....

My point is that simulations are ok to a point. You are left to rely on your pilots, commanders, planners, team players to have the where-with-all to adapt to changing situations, tactics, political whims...etc.. So.. it comes down to people and their will/smarts. I think that is just as important as having the best kit.

A fine example of this was OIF in Iraq. NOBODY , wargamers, think tanks, commanders got within a million miles of the subsequent events after the taking of Baghdad. The Army had to adapt and boy did events not turn out the way we expected them to! I don`t think it is really as black and white as most simulations suggest. Having said all of that, the sims` may turn out to a gross underestimation of the F-22! Nobody really knows until the gloves come off. Now Zgiglio and others, I know you are not saying that, just some things to think about...

As things stand, the F-22 will reign supreme, but there are always surprises.

avon1944 wrote:

When the F-22 pilot wants to keep his IR detection to a minimum, he can supercruise at (say) Mach 1.2, 50,000+ and, nose pitched up to a maximum of 25°.... hiding any and all hot spots. The best angle to detect the F-22 is directly behind it.

Raptor_One wrote:

Nose pitched up to a maximum of 25° at Mach 1.2 and 50,000 ft? This makes no sense to me, but perhaps you can clarify. If you are trying to imply that the F-22 can maintain LEVEL flight at 50,000 ft. and Mach 1.2 while simultaneously maintaining 25° angle of attack, I can assure you that's not possible. Even at 50,000 ft, the AoA required for level flight at Mach 1.2 is MUCH lower than 25°. In fact, I think you'd probably rip most aircraft apart if you went up to 25° AoA at Mach 1.2. That would probably equate to a G load much higher than 9 G. But again, perhaps I misunderstood you. Please clarify.

When the F-22 flies with its nose pitched up all of the hot spots on the aircraft, caused by air friction are hidden from other aircraft below except from an aircraft that is below and behind it.
The F-22 was designed so all its hot spots along the wing occur about 25% of the way back of the upper wing along the chord. The intakes were also were also designed with this feature. So it is difficult to detect heat from air friction on the leading edges of the intakes. The vectored thrust is also cooler than a standard type exhaust section. All this combines to present a small IR signature.
The F-22 on its offensive and defensive displays, the distances at which the F-22 is indicated. So the pilot knows when he is detectible versus undetected.

Adrian

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Shooting down a Raptor via IR tracking