Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

snypa777 wrote:

AKs 20, thanks for the info.

I have done some reading, what I gather is that the LCA has no inherent stealth characteristics. It presents a smaller radar signature by virtue of it`s small size. It is actually a smaller aircraft than the JAS39 Gripen, a metre shorter. The LCA is the worlds smallest combat fighter. I don`t include trainer aircraft which can be used as emergency combat aircraft like the Korean Golden Eagle.

Hi Snypa,
The LCA's was designed to be low RCS, hence they chose composites ...it has one of the highest proportion of composites in any modern fighter today, if not the greatest. Basically, the small size and choice of materials has enabled it to reduce its signature. Of course, with underslung weaponry, that advantage is slightly negated.

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I think it is very impressive that India has developed this aircraft from scratch. A lot of the systems had new industries created to build them.
I don`t think any modern fighter of 4th or even 5th gen` is ever created totally indigenously. Even the F-22 has foreign components.

Well said sir.

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The LCA was built with help/input from Lockheed Martin, until sanctions put an end to it`s involvement. SNECMA, BAE Systems, Martin Baker, GE and MIG (engine testing) have had input into the design. The two most difficult areas seemed to be FBW (Fly by wire) and the "Kaveri" engine. The FBW, FCS problems were solved. The flight control laws were proven onboard F-16 VISTA simulators and aircraft I believe. That was impressive as no country used to export FBW know how which was classified AFAIK.

Very correct.

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The biggest problem is certainly the local "Kaveri" engine. It must be very tough to build a modern combat jet engine from scratch. A variable cycle type no less. Even a local FADEC. GE flew in some retired engine experts at the request of the Indian government to help solve the problems. No one is saying what those difficulties were though. Everything else seems top notch. India is doing some things with composites that NO-ONE else is doing. I hope India solves the "Kaveri" problems soon.

The Kaveri is a typical example of the LCA approach, ie aim for the moon but spend Indian amounts and shoot for the stars...but it has been derailed because very limited experience exists in terms of building jet engines. The private sector in India could have hired top notch talent (purchased, from abroad) but Indian Govt procedures stuck as they are in legalistic bureaucracy forbid such "shortcuts".

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The GE-F-404 will be used in the LCA for the first few squadrons. I think it would be wise to stick with the `404 in terms of export potential. Customers know what they are getting with that engine. Especially in terms of support, spares, upgrades.

I agree, but the sanctions issue and political issues crop up wrt the foreign engine. Plus the IAF and the Army in India are renowned for putting much more stringent conditions on locally produced equipment than that imported. So the Kaveri will continue to be important.

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Apparently IAF pilots would prefer the F-404 unit, it is a proven engine.

Overall though, good show from India which was brave enough to go it alone and produce the thing. Cool

Thank you, its great someone gets the import of the program and its significance to Indias aeronautical industry.

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Angels225 wrote:

somehow i think the IAf was better of gettin more Su-30's or Migs than this thing

One day, one has to start making things, instead of always taking the easy way out via imports!

my dear friend as an authority i would like to tell you and everyone here that Tejas is really a 4.5 gen aircraft with its reduced radar signature which is due to the highest amount of use of composite material in the world. it has semi stealth capability which makes it 4.5 gen. although it started in 1980 but actual work began only in 1994 and with your stupid logic the americal F18 hornet which was developed in 170 would be very bad then as per ur stupid logic of which year development started ?
Also IAF has initially ordered 20 aircrafts to check and suggest further improvements and at same time IAF has ordered 220 Tejas to be delivered in phases already and navy has 50 requirements. so first improve your knowledge about facts then open your mouth. without any relevant knowledge you people just keep barking
even the foreign pilots who came to aeroshow and studied its flight were dumbstruck and full of praise.
Tejas with its semi stealthy nature , MMR radar , d variety of advanced weapon control systems which are similar to rafale is far far better than J10 or F-16 which pakistan has.

IndianAirForce wrote:

http://english.people.com.cn/200601/09/eng20060109_234043.html

This link to the people daily online article which states that the HAL Tejas is a "Fourth Generation Aircraft"

It also stated that the IAF is only ordering 20 some aircraft.

I was wondering if the HAL tejas is really a fourth generation aircraft. It was designed around the 80s along with many delays. I wouldn't exactly call it a fourth generation aircraft. It does not have as advances technology as the gripen, Raptor, or any other fourth generation aircraft.

It also said that the IAF is only buying some 20 aircraft. I have read previously that they were planning to buy at least 70 aircraft buy 2011.

There would be no point to buy only 20 aircraft.

my dear friend as an authority i would like to tell you and everyone here that Tejas is really a 4.5 gen aircraft with its reduced radar signature which is due to the highest amount of use of composite material in the world. it has semi stealth capability which makes it 4.5 gen. although it started in 1980 but actual work began only in 1994 and with your stupid logic the americal F18 hornet which was developed in 170 would be very bad then as per ur stupid logic of which year development started ?
Also IAF has initially ordered 20 aircrafts to check and suggest further improvements and at same time IAF has ordered 220 Tejas to be delivered in phases already and navy has 50 requirements. so first improve your knowledge about facts then open your mouth. without any relevant knowledge you people just keep barking
even the foreign pilots who came to aeroshow and studied its flight were dumbstruck and full of praise.
Tejas with its semi stealthy nature , MMR radar , d variety of advanced weapon control systems which are similar to rafale is far far better than J10 or F-16 which pakistan has.

Last edited by keithmoon on Jul 26, 2011 - 12:58 AM; edited 2 times in total

First of all, you should be a bit more respectful, Akshay. Your post lacks even the slightest bit of civility, even when considering the original poster was clearly mistaken about a few things.

Fighter generation classification is a hazy practice and mostly used for marketing purposes. But, I wouldn't consider Tejas Mk. 1 to be a 4.5Gen aircraft. It lacks an AESA radar and it's sensor fusion and man-machine interface is nowhere near it's western contemporaries. As a matter of fact, P.V. Naik has stated:

“Tejas is not yet a fourth generation aircraft. It can of course come up to that level given the technology, but it needs more work...Having checked and compared the endurance, performance, load carrying capacity, weapons delivering ability, accuracy, avionics and the radars, I think it is a MiG-21++.”

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/127 ... thers.html

I assume the Indian Air Chief is a better authority than you, Akshay. I have no doubts that Tejas Mk. 2 will be a more modern aircraft with better avionics and more refined aerodynamics. Perhaps, with enough work, it will be nearly as capable as the Gripen (it, after all, has a better engine). In my estimation, the only 4.5Gen Fighters are the soon-to-be-AESA-equipped Rafale, F-16_60, F-18E/F, Strike Eagle (and variants), and the Mitsubishi F-2 as they all are AESA-equipped and operational. Currently, Mig-35, Gripen NG, and CaptorE-equipped Eurofighter exist only on paper.

LCA uses an incredible amount of composites and this is respectable (especially in comparison to its 4th Gen contemporaries), but it doesn't mean that it has the most advanced airframe. Composites are useful in reducing RCS, but what about its thermal characteristics? The F-22, which costs over 6 times the LCA, uses huge amounts of Ti to control its thermal signature in addition to sporting a VLO airframe. It is hard to track by either radar OR IRST! But, it is obviously a 5th gen fighter.

The F-18 was indeed designed in the late 70's, but it will soon be replaced by the F-35, which is decades ahead of the Tejas. It is very likely that Tejas Mk. 2 and F-35 will be inducted at the same time. Furthermore, F-18E/F was designed in the late 80's/early 90's, and will likely be substantially more advanced than even Tejas Mk. 2. I don't think any country, or consortium of countries, can touch the Americans' electronics prowess quite yet.

Where did you find that India will buy 220 Tejas Mk. 2? Clearly, this is just speculation, as no one in the IAF has commented on how many Tejas Mk. 2 will be purchased. The Press speculates anywhere between 100-200 specimen will be inducted, but no firm order number has been established and no comment has been made anywhere by either the CCS or IAF.

Lastly, Pakistan's F-16_52 are substantially better aircraft than the LCA. LCA is not meant as a counter for these planes (Su-30MKI, Mig-29UPG, and MMRCA are). The LCA is a replacement for the Mig-21/BISON and its direct Pakistani competitor is the JF-17. The Tejas is more advanced than the JF-17, certainly. No one knows how advanced Chinese avionics technology is. How then can you be certain that Tejas is more advanced than J-10B? It might be, but it is not certain. The Radar and electronics suite for LCA Mk. 2 has neither been finalized nor announced, so it would be impossible to comment on the efficacy of Tejas Mk. 2 vs. any other fighter.

In reality, Tejas Mk. 1 is a near-4th generation fighter and is an excellent replacement for India's low-end Mig-21. It is constructed with a high amount of composites with some novel fabrication processes and likely sports a very small RCS when equipped as an interceptor. It is an excellent attempt by India to create an affordable fighter and develop its indigenous industry. It does not compare with F-18E/F, Eurofighter, Rafale, Gripen NG, etc... as it was never meant to! With a better electronic suite, Tejas Mk. 2, per the estimation of P.V. Naik, will be a 4th generation aircraft. I estimate IAF will purchase between 60 - 150 LCA Mk. 2 and opt for an additional 3-4 squadrons of MMRCA after the first 6 squadrons are delivered.

Before you bash others, calling them stupid, unknowledgeable, and liken them to dogs, I suggest you further research this topic which you self-proclaim to be an authority in...because you seem to be mistaken about quite a number of things.

oops...double post.

It's a little small by modern standards, but I think it will serve its purpose. It could also be a serviceable, low-cost alternative to more advanced airframes should economics or politics interfere with other purchases.

Newbie Joined: Aug 02, 2011 - 08:12 PM Posts: 2

keithmoon, it seems you are little misinformed about HAL tejas as well.

the ACM was talking about the Mk1 standard as it stood right then, at IOC level and FOC yet to be completed.
this is what he thinks about the whole generation business.

http://spsaviation.net/story_issue.asp?Article=736

Quote:

SP’s: Could you give the latest update on the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas development/acquisition programme? ....

CAS: As of now, we have seven LCA aircraft and these are being put through their final paces, before induction into the IAF this year. We are expecting two more limited series production aircraft to join the fleet by the third quarter this year. The LCA, in its present form, is a fourth generation aircraft and we are working with HAL to enhance its capabilities. I am hopeful that the aircraft, in its final operational clearance configuration, will be a much more potent platform, to be a ‘fourth generation plus’

so clearly, he thinks that Tejas Mk2 will be a 4.5 gen fighter.

I have no idea why you think a fighter with a 3 axis digital quad FBW, internal jammers, an open architecture avionics system that enables quick upgradation etc is near fourth gen.
avionics developed for the LCA project are in fact used to upgrade the su-30mki, IAF's premier fighter and will find its way into the PAKFA in the near future. what's more, the Mk2 version will also feature an AESA radar.
all in all, the only thing it would really lack is an IIR sensor, but then that's the case with many 4th gen aircraft.
it would surely not be able to match the range or payload performance of a F16 but I don't see how tech wise it is lagging behind.

as for numbers, unlike other air forces IAF does not order hundreds of aircraft in one go, the MRCA is an exception in that regard. current firm orders are 40 from IAF and a commitment from IAF chief of 140 or more. add to that the 50 naval version the navy wants, the total comes quite close to 220 doesn't it ?

I'd be interested to see the Tejas LCA-Naval variant fly with next-gen F414 EPE upgraded power. That could enable quite an interesting cost-effective capability, not necessarily limited to Naval based operation imho.

Naw, it ain't THAT ugly. The Typhoon and Rafale are far worse.

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

HAL LCA as Fourth Generation Aircraft