Forum: F-22A Raptor

The F-22 and JSF is the ultimate example of "pricing " the competition, nay, "blowing" the competition out of the water.
To produce capable counters to these airframes is just toooo expensive for Russia or India.
It will be interesting to see how close they get though! They could end up with a very capable POS!

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'Huh huh huh huh huh' (laugh of that 2 old men in the Muppet Show). Remember Anglo-Saxians: in the Blitzkrieg WW2 the French had a stronger army than the Krauts, within a couple of weeks the garlic-consumers were finished. The German Kingtiger and Panther tank were the best, but they were outnumbered by the inferior M4 'tommy cooker' Sherman. The Rafale is an older design than the F-35, but it's performance comes close to the F-35. And why are (fast) growing economies like Russia, India and China not able to design and build an anti-JSF? The F-22 is a different story, but it is a fleet of 178/183 copies. Keep in mind that skills and training of defense personell (Napoleon Bonaparte said once: the commander which makes the least mistakes will win), their moral; numbers of weaponsystems; applied tactics and strategies and industrial production capacity will influence the total battle capability.
My dear Snypa777, war is just like a soccer match, the team that is the best on paper will not always win the game.

Hey LOCUM, that was great response!! Wink

Yes, the French army were beaten by an army that manouevered and didn`t rely on WW1 tactics. German Tiger tanks were a real problem until we cut their fuel supplies and fed them an unending wave of Shermans! Many things influence a battle, I know that. I also have respect for the latest SUxx(no pun intended!), Migs, etc...

My point is that NO-ONE will be able to afford to make a plane like the F-22 in the near future, that is precisely why Russia and India are building the PAK-FA. You concede that yourself. There is no guarantee this aircraft will be equal to the F-22, who knows.
The JSF is a TRUE stealth aircraft. If planning holds, there will be over 2,000 of them available for combat. The F-22 and JSF will not operate alone, don`t really need to go into the vast support these aircraft will have operating alongside them.. Support that no other airforce/millitary can give.

Having TWO true stealth workhorses is like having the referee in a soccer match on YOUR side .
Wink

The airforce with stealthy aircraft has a real advantage. My earlier comments were said with humour. The great millitary commanders have always said, "Never underestimate your enemy". I humbly agree. I am merely trying to point out that a stealthy airforce has most of the good cards in their hands.

Very Happy

Joined: Dec 16, 2005 - 12:54 PM Posts: 0 Status: Offline

Dear All !! Very Happy

Wouaou ....

Just two funny pics or three found and posted entirely by chance in the Net and here we are again starting the words war if the Russians will get close, who will have money to kick someone else's a$$ etc.

I understand both side of views such as those expressed by elp, Guysmiley, snypa777 and of course locum's who thinks that it may indeed happen.

As I said before we are not Gods here in the forum. We only express our opinions and speculations.

So to sum my view up :

Yes elp, Guysimley and snypa777 we all know that the F-22A is the Queen of Queens. I am writing so long posts to praise the jet each time I post that LordofBunnies comes and tells me that I lack a life etc Laughing

I don't think that the opposition will never managa to do it and that it will be only Photoshop project (By the way, Photoshop developers !!! I will get a copy of it too !!! Laughing

)

What I believe is that it will come so LATE and as a result of that and other factors it will NOT be AS CAPABLE that it will not have a tactical or strategical sense to field their jet once it is out there.

Which obviously is equal as bad as of not having the jet in the first place since they will spent a lot of time and money only to see it being outclassed before it ever flies.

So I am not entirely disagreeing with you guys I just give a different version/estimation of how things may develop.

locum : Yes the French were beaten during WWII by the Germans.

I however would like to mention these couple of facts to you for further food for thought.

First, that the French Army was beaten because of the wrong application of DOCTRINE before anything else.

It is most accepted view that the were advocating an armed force utilization based on Infantry-Artillery and the Germans literally entered war win 6th Gear with panzers and Stukas.

So the duo of Air Force - Tanks beats the duo of Infantry - Artillery.

Also standing behing a line like Maginot and force static war to the opponent was also a very poor mistake.

So the French have fallen sort in the STRATEGY issue as well.

Now locum I will tell you why I partly agree with elp, Guysmiley and snypa777.

Not because I am an a$$ kisser and want to go on and write nice cheesy posts that only accept others views as they are. In fact I would not have any ttrouble to oppose any of them as well as others any day any where if I would think that they were wrong.

no no .... it is not that.

It is because I see that they have a very good point regarding the REALISTIC chances of the anti-F-22 jet ever appearing.

It is a fact that Russia had gone to the East to find partners for the very big voyage which is called 5th Generation Fighter Development.

But I would just offer the view to you all here that this move by them was driven mainly by need rather desire.

The relations between China-Russia throughout history are well known to us.

The Russians see China as a quickly emerging power and practically have decided to give way to old not so good feelings for each other to help their cause of saving their aeronautical industry among others.

If it wasn't for the Chinese or the Indians for that matter no other at least valuable source could exist....

Let's all relax and take a journey around the wonderful planet called Earth...

So firtst, Europe !!! (as it is discussed now a lot)... well no.... they (Europeans) would say no so as to proceed with their own projects of the Eurocanard family rather fund the competitor....More limited partnerships may exist in some areas but give money all the way like that so that RSK-Mig or Sukhoi can get one of their own jets in the air well ... No... Sorry Sir it is not going to happen....

Africa... well they would tell you give us money to get dressed and eat and drink first then we will see .... no luck there either....

America (Central-South) : Also not financially good state countries and lacking technical expertise....

Australia .... Well in other forums around the net the Aussies were saying some things there about getting Flankers but I am sure that the historic relations with the West as well as considerations for logistics/commonality-compatibility with other US led forces will prevail and they will proceed with western designs/offers for their new jets or so is my own estimate anyway...

Antarctica and Arctic : Oups only penguins living there and wales.. Sorry guys for knocking your door Laughing

So back to Asia... Well... where to go .... Middle EAst ...Right so who is going to be then ? If you find Arab country to help the Russians for the project I would be happy to hear....

Some said go to Palestine Israel etc... Well I let fezt my good friend from there tell you about that I am not the expert.... He definetely will know better...

As for our neighbours Turkey well it is one of the 9 JSF partnet nations so bye bye then...

So back to Southeastern Asia and the Far East... Well I think we will have the same problem ... desire may be expressed by the funds and the technical expertise will not be there....

So the duo of India and China is the only that stays there in the ports of call list after a shortlisting of partners.....

Now locum let's come to the training side....

Well this is MAIN reason of why the F-22 as well as its pilots will never be really challenged....

And this is because the F-22 is already a reality.. As we speak people are flying it, maintaining it, evaluating it and making it even better....

By the time the opposition will have anything to say the Raptor drivers will wear patches with 2,000 or even 3,000 hours on their shoulders and will have graduated from Fighter Weapon Schools with honours....

Now don't go and fall into the mistake that I take an arrogant attitude towards other nation's armed forces and saying only that the Americans are the best.

I am Greek by the way not American so argument of this sort is mute anyway....

No no.. it is because I have a very stong belief that the Americans had operated jets of this technology (stealth) in various roles like the B-2, F-117 in the past now the F-22 and in the future the F-35 as well for far more time than anyone else that at the end they will be far superior against any one else out there in their operational use as well....

If you see what happens a lot of the JSF partner countries complain because they will not be able to get the secrets of the jet or so if they were to build it or buy it...

So imagine how difficult is to come and beat in the the training/operational front the US.

If you don't accept anything of what I have written above then I think the last argument of superior US training in the use of stealth technology is far from easy to counter claim.

Anyway the post size is big once again so I have committed the size sin-thing again but I am sure you got some idea.

LordofBunnies : I will have my bear now thank you I feel thirsty after talking so much Beer

So as far as the Raptor is concerned no arrogance or contempt for it or towards it respectively is the best course.

I think you will all agree. Wink

THODORIS.

THODORIS., God, I thought I talk too much!!! Wink

{kidding).

I think that having the F-22 and JSF, netcentric warefare, force integration, excellent training, continued development and LEARNING from your mistakes, puts you in a position of strength. The Russians/Chinese..etc try to do the same thing with variable results. Some very good, some not.

Fielding aircraft like F-22/JSF with STEALTH/ SUPERCRUISE/NEW TACTICS puts you in a position of strength. Any opposition, as you have said, is going to be expensive and a long time in coming....Unless someone comes up with a stealth aircraft detector tomorrow, which is entirely possible, if I was a combat pilot, I would rather go into combat flying an airplane which is a bitch to see and "lock" on radar, than a radar target the size of the Hindenburg which is what a SUxx is!
The F-22 is needed to stay ahead of the game, the Russians feel EXACTLY the same, that is why they are getting India to fund the PAK-FA for them. This plane might turn out to be the equal of the F-22. Somehow I can`t see the Raptor ending it`s development/ improved capabilities/enhancements program just yet.

IF this PAK-FA becomes as good as the Raptor, a serious threat, what is the betting that a successor to the Raptor sees the light of day?

Re: Europe making an F-22 equivelant.

It won't happen...Europe seem to be skipping true 5th gen all together of their own... they seem to be putting all their efforts now into a 6th gen UCAV fighter.

Neuron and Nightjar come to mind, europe (well, UK) showed they could build a 5th gen stealth aircraft with the Replica project however I think the results of that study will go into the Nightjar program.

Andy

Andy, the know-how is certainly there around the world. It is the cost of development/research/manufacture/.etc and well, the will which seems to be prohibitive
I wonder if Russia /China actually NEED an F-22 type aircraft? If they just spend a lot less money and produce a partly stealthy aircraft that is difficult to to "Kill" it might just be enough if produced in huge numbers? Using the right tactics it could be the way for them to go....I would think that they would WANT an aircraft that equalled or surpassed the Raptor though! Wink

Joined: Dec 16, 2005 - 12:54 PM Posts: 0 Status: Offline

Excellent arguments, very good questions snypa777.

You see guys THIS IS WHY I love this forum !!! Cool

Always something excellent to hear and take.

All the issues that you touch are the ones that I talk not only here in the forum but also with friends in various places when issues for future Air Power come up.

I am living in the UK as well you know at Cranfield, Bedforshire where my University that I do my PhD is located (Cranfield University) and a lot of people of Britain have the same toughts exactly with me and you here.

So when you said in your post that the F-22 has to stay ahead of the game I was very happy since this is what I try to say all day long.

Stealth technology is based on constant evolution practically even revolution to stay competitive.

Try to rest on your laurels and you are toast.

Understimating the opposition is the biggest mistake.

So while we can lough at pics like that and say Yea Good Photoshop work I take it otherwise and say : Guys, back to work and don't think about stopping.

You see my country Greece has founded empires only to loose them afterwards because not an EXTERNAL ENEMY but rather INTERNAL flow or better series of flaws started taking shape and that was looking down on defence needs and the potential threats.

I know the American people very well because I have lived in the States in the past and I know that arrogance and a bad attitude to others is not their way of things at all this is why when I see American posters saying ... '' Yea anti-Raptor jets hahhahahahaha '''''' I reply immediately please come back to your senses and start to behave like REAL Americans.

The USAF actually has a vey well set structure to analyze and evaluate threats. So I am sure that the PAK-FAs not only cheesy pics as we see them here but real or envisaged specs will be obtained well in advance and that a proper course of action is to be followed then.

So this means exactly that Lockheed with USAF and the other industrial partners will have to sit and make the F-35 as well a reality and extend the F-22s presence even further.

I am sure that the article that I posted earlier today from Lockheed's CEO says a lot about how the company itself, and I am sure USAF or even USN/USMC as well, think about the JSF, the F-22 and how to proceed. If you read between the lines you will see that even Lockheed's boss says all these things that we discuss in the forum everyday.

Underestimating the opposition is practically forbidden. Today's cheessy pics may well be tomorrow's real jets.

I said that it will take tons of cash and effort to do it. But eventually they will be there.

So take it from a Greek who comes from a country with well known and respected history and accomplishment as a friendly piece of thought that US should even extend its efforts as much as they can to stay ahead of the game if they are to be able to operate and maintain the premier Air Force of the planet.

You see snypa777 you even said it yourself that a stealth detector can come tomorrow.

I always had great respect for the people of the electronics industry, actually some of my best friends were doing their majors in Electrical/Electronics Engineering and Computer Science while I was becomng the ''Naval guy'' with Naval Architecture/Marine Engineering. Wink

So I can say that they are tremendously innovative kind of people. Actually I don't think that we as ship designers-Naval Architects experience such levels of innovation in our industry very often or so is my opinion anyway.

So what I am saying is that the avionics suites ande the weapons will be the first that the opposition will first look after to beat the F-22.

Don't fall into the trap that opposition for the F-22 will have to be initially at least a completely new plane with all ithe whistles and bells nstalled on it and then say ... '' Yea but how are they going to do it...''

The opposition may work in other directions first, perhaps field systems or series of systems and employ tactics not known now.

So the best is to expeand the F-22s basic capabilites even further while preparing/paving the way for the F-35.

So our motto should be : ''PLAN - ABSORB DATA/EXPERIENCES - ANALYSE/EVALUATE - RESPOND/EXECUTE EFFECTIVELLY'' in a loop form.

The other goodies such as the UCAVs will then also come to support initally not take over completely of course the F-22/F-35.

So I think USAF is in a very good path.

Therefore, stick to the good work and I am sure that all PAK-FAs in the world will be there for the taking. Do it not and think they are blur images and you may find otherwise only to your discomfort.

THODORIS. Thumb

[/quote]

RaptorFighterPilot wrote:

The opposition may work in other directions first, perhaps field systems or series of systems and employ tactics not known now.

So the best is to expeand the F-22s basic capabilites even further while preparing/paving the way for the F-35.

My feelings exactly.

When the USAF has fielded an advanced aircraft, the "opposition" has fielded an aircraft 10 to 11 years later that "matches" it. These are US defence department views. Russia has shown that it is unwilling to continue doing this on it`s own. This is understandable considering the HUGE costs involved. The smart way to do it is to get India to fund it then get them to buy a S@*t load of them to offset development costs!

As you have said, it may be more cost effective to dream up ways to counter stealth than to try to match it. I am SURE people are working on that right now. In the here and now, the F-22 seems peerless with it`s bag of tricks. Only time will tell if that is true.
By the way, I stand by my earlier post..This new "5th gen" PAK-FA effort may be a Raptor eating three headed monster with no equal...or it may be a POS! Laughing

By the way, Thodoris, hope you are enjoying your time in good ole` blighty! (UK). ahhhh, university life....
Well, had too much beer, time to go to Bedfordshire!!!

Joined: Dec 16, 2005 - 12:54 PM Posts: 0 Status: Offline

Most thanks for your good words snypa777 Very Happy

I am happy that I share the same views for these very serious issues with other members of our forum.

Yes... there will be ways to find and then follow to produce an F-22 not necessarily the top and equal opponent as some may think but an ALTERNATIVE whose deployment will balance the scales once again.

Its form, way of employing its power and last but not least tactics are a big unknown and this program's whereabouts a big ''X'' in our screen.

Whether we will have the three headed monster as our good friend snypa777 says Laughing

or the POS is something to be seen. This is the only question that I can't answer either right now Shrug

And the state of the program itself for the F-22s competitor or even competitors if more than one program are pursued is not known exactly but estimated by intelligence sources and spying of various forms.

Intel is good but I don't think the situation about Russia's new plane is ''OK. here is the secret building in Siberia that designs it go and put satellite to take pictures so we will know as soon as something with wings gets out of the research hangar''.

As you see now they (Russians) try to make a multinational effort. So they give politics and diplomacy examinations for their country right now besides the technical ones.

Eventually some other countries that may lack technical capability but are willing to offer even their limited funding will turn up to the Russians and say '''...there, take these now (enter your estimated cash amount) and as soon as the jet emerges we promise to buy it as well''.

Now which these countries are going to be is not so clear cut... As you saw from my previous posts during our global trip financial many countries now may not be able to support either money wise or technology wise ... but the future may be different...

If the JSF falled into the nightmare of cancellation please kindly note that the likehood that other countries besides China and India may eventually turn to Russia for a next generation fighter increase exponentially in my opinion since even the trio of Typhoon-Rafale-Grippen may proove to be also not able to be exported to them due to political attitude maintained by these countries to Europe, or being a competitor in other fields etc....or not able to fulfill their standards effectivelly.

So I guess Europe has to keep their eyes and ears open also at all times so that bad days don't come.

The same applies if the JSF stays but all the very important issues of technology sharing plague its marketing effort and result in drop of orders for the jets leaving most probably the US and UK as the two main contenders for orders with limited or not orders for other countries.

Equally disasterous in may respects....

So the seemingly loners now Russians may find a good group of peers to get on with the project.

This is why it is most important to maintain at least a good level of diplomacy with most countries and assure them by demonstrating a strong commitment attitude for the JSF that they are not buying into a disaster for thier Air Arms but a fully valuable alternative which eventhough may not be a Raptor but will have nevertheless the capabilities to counter any present and future threats for these Air Forces standards,

Afterall me and our forum friend and IAF F-16 pilot fezt have given an indication during some past posts in the Raptor Thread series that for a lot of Air Forces no Raptors are needed anyway since for our own standards is resulting in overkill.

So I think that what will happen with the PAK-FA is directly proportional to BOTH of the TWO major fighter programs in the US, F-22 AND F-35 rather ONLY F-22 or ONLY F-35.

It is sure that the F-22 will be our hearts and reality's Queen as well there in the skies but the little Princess called F-35 is also very important so don't understimate her value either...

So far she may not look or be that ''experienced' but taking her home after a date may proove otherwise Laughing

THODORIS.

locum wrote:

'Huh huh huh huh huh' (laugh of that 2 old men in the Muppet Show). Remember Anglo-Saxians: in the Blitzkrieg WW2 the French had a stronger army than the Krauts, within a couple of weeks the garlic-consumers were finished. The German Kingtiger and Panther tank were the best, but they were outnumbered by the inferior M4 'tommy cooker' Sherman. The Rafale is an older design than the F-35, but it's performance comes close to the F-35. And why are (fast) growing economies like Russia, India and China not able to design and build an anti-JSF? The F-22 is a different story, but it is a fleet of 178/183 copies. Keep in mind that skills and training of defense personell (Napoleon Bonaparte said once: the commander which makes the least mistakes will win), their moral; numbers of weaponsystems; applied tactics and strategies and industrial production capacity will influence the total battle capability.
My dear Snypa777, war is just like a soccer match, the team that is the best on paper will not always win the game.

Thodoris, some feedback.
- I am writing brief posts, you are making long posts, just a personal choice. Please read carefully, my 'Muppet Show' post was a reaction on Snypa777's post. The message of my post was: Do not overestimate yourself, because all or the most of your gold or platinium-plated weaponsystems outclass the ones of your opponent. The outcome of a conflict is determined by a lot of factors like: tactics, strategy, training & skills of wariors, numbers etc.
In WW2 the Germans choose for the quality-'card', the best tanks, the best fighter plane (Focke Wulf FW-190), the Allies took the quantity-'card', outnumbered them and won, yes this is quit simplistic but I am aware of the other factors. The Warsaw-Pact choose to outnumber NATO with all kind of weapons. For example, the NATO tankfleet was outnumbered by a factor of 3 or 4.
If you ask a tactician: what is the best way to fight a tank, a figterplane or whatever kind of weapon? He will answer: another tank/ fighterplane etc.
This is the symmetric approach.
A strategy-maker can choose this symmetric approach, but he can go for an a-symmetric approach. As we know, NATO did not increase it's tankfleet to match the W-P in numbers. They choose for better quality, they invested a lot in anti-tank weapons. For every WP tank, NATO had 3 anti-tank missiles and don't forget the Apache and Cobra.
To neutralise their other outnumbering weapons, NATO (read USA) developed the Follow On Forces Attack (FOFA) strategy, do not try to defeat the enemy directly on the battlfield, but attack: their lines of communication, infrastructure, troopconcentrations etc. behind the battlefield. As a result we got interdiction aircraft like F-111, Tornado and A-6.

Personally I think that approx 20% of your total combatcapability is a grey area, war is comparable to a vulcano eruption, on the battlefield there is a lot of chaos, there are a lot of things despite state-of-the-art sensors and communication devices you can not foresee and/or control.

Thodoris, I know that the French got defeated because of the wrong strategy, I did not write that the Russians, Chinese and/or the Indians will come up with a warplane that will equal or outclass the Raptor, now nothing comes close to this revolutionary exotic stratofighter.
To quote myself: The F-22 is a different story, but they will come with something that will equal or outclass the JSF, the French are already building a 4th gen. fighter which comes close in performance compared to the F-35.
I agree with Snypa777 that the Russians, Chinese and Indians will probably not go for an anti-F-22 plane, they will choose a cheaper and less capable plane that can outnumber the F-22 and F-35.
Yes, the Soviet-Union imploded geographically, economically and their armed forces, under the Boris Yeltsin goverment it was chaos. The Putin goverment tries to re-emerge economically by exporting vast amounts of crude oil, natural gas, nickel, diamonds etc., European natural gas consumption is supplied by 25% from Russia and this will probably increase in the future. Former S-U states, do not trust the Russians and they expect that the Russians wil (try) to re-emerge as a political/military super-, or regional power and will cause problems again, an example is the natural gas crisis between Russia and the Ukraina.
In the past, Russians excelled in aerodynamics, they developed mathemattical models which form the basis of radar-stealth, in the nineties they were excelling in laser and microwave technologies, they can build good performing jetengines. Yes, I agree the USA outclasses Russia in the fields of integrated avionics and networkcentric-warfare.

China - If you want to do business with them, than they force you to do a technology transfer, otherwise no business. The Chinese got there hands on 'F-16-C', Patriot SAM, Mk-48 torpedo technology.
Chinese and Russian intelligence agencies are very active in Europe and the USA gathering technological know-how.
Pakistan developed the A-bomb, not because they had bright scientists like Fermi, Oppenheimer, Einstein, etc. Just 1 of their scientists walked out of the Netherlands with the plans of an ultra-centrifuge.
US nuclear scientists from Los Alamos visited China somewhere in the first half of nineties, the Chinese shown them a particle-accellerator, US scientists were surprised: the bolting-pattern of that particle-accellerator was 'very very similar' to that of a US accellerator.
The success of Coalition forces in Gulf War I and the Kosovo-campaign in 1999, worries the Chinese and Russians, I know that the Chinese are worried by the US stealth capabilities and they are studying on ways of neutralising this capability. They can follow the symmetric approach, difficult, maybe impossible to catch up with the US, instead of investing billions of bucks they can steal (stealth) technology from the USA, UK, France, Sweden, Germany, Israel etc.
In 1999, the Chinese ambassy in Serbia was bombed 'by accident', 6 Chines e 'journalists' were killed. According to the Americans it was caused by a 'mapping error' due to 4 year old maps. Well in 1995 the then empty piece of land was already promised to house the Sino ambassy. Probably they got bombed, because in the ambassy sensitive parts of the shot-down F-117 were hold.
Sweden is a small country with a population of approx 8.5 million, but they managed to build high performance fighters with highly integrated avionics and they introduced networkcentric warfare already in the sixties with their STRIL 60 air defense system and Saab Draken. If they are able to develop this, why not other countries.
In another small country, named the Netherlands, a company called Hollandse Signaal Apparaten, now part of the French Thales, they developed in the nineties a radar-technology which could defeat radar-stealth.
The Americans quickly bought their technology and told them to keep the mouth shut, it is a matter of time when somebody else will 're-invent this wheel'.
Yep, networkcentric warfare will change warfare, but it can also be used to defeat stealth. You can use a small number of (static) surface based radarstations combined with a small number of AWACS (E-3, E-10, Phalcon, Wedgetail, Il-76 Mainstay etc.), or you can use a myriad of multi-spectral sensors placed in a wide variety of vehicles tied together via a network, an a-symmetric approach.

'Never bring a knife to a gunfight'
Nobody of us knowes what the future will bring, the rise of the superpower USA came quickly, the collaps of the Soviet-Union: same story. Maybe in 2008 the US Dollar will collaps, probably the European Union will collaps before the year 2020 (because of imperial overstrech) including their Euro-coin, yes you Europeans, you are a monetary union, but not a political union! Thodoris put his finger on the right spot, most empires crumble because of internal flaws/enemies.

The armoured battleship became outdated because of the development of aircraft carriers.
Maybe the same will happen with the manned tactical fighter, maybe an Asian country is the first in fielding a multi-role UCAV which can perform also air superiority/combat missions because of advanced software and can outmanouvre F-22's and certainly F-35's by 20G.
Maybe tactical fighters become outdated, because of a space force equipped with directed energy weapons (lasers, concentrated micro-wave beams), hypersonic vehicles and weapons.
Remember 1 Soyuz launch costs USD 60 million, while 1 Space Shuttle launch costs approx USD 450 million, also think about the reliability and availability issue.
Or maybe Raptor fighterpilots are killed by a micro/nano UCAV, which stings them with let's say a shot of ricine, or they just get a letter contaminated with Anthrax!

Elp vs Fezt

Elp I agree with Fezt regarding the F-15/F-16 and I know that a lot of people in the Heyl Ha'Avir think in the same way. They see the Viper as the Mustang of the eighties, nineties and first decenium. The first thing you learn as a soldier: never attack an unknown opponent. I learnt that even if you overcome that unknown opponent, it is not a victory (Sun-Tzu, Chinese strategy-maker)

Yo Peg can you bring me a sixpack of Keystone beer. Oooh Al first I want to make a hot pit refuel stop-over with you in the bedroom before you get your sixpack. Naaaahhhh (Al).

The F-22 is a "needed" piece of kit because it puts the USAF at an advantage right NOW. The time will almost certainly come when it can be successfully countered. This may happen in 5, 10 years from now.

It is just ye olde arms race. We have seen the same thing right through the industrial revolution and for time immemorial....
A good case in point is the SR-71. It stayed ahead of the competition for 30 years with its revolutionary design. Could we have, in the Raptor, that same leap in capability? We will have to wait and see....

Joined: Dec 16, 2005 - 12:54 PM Posts: 0 Status: Offline

Dear locum,

Without realising it perhaps you wrote a long post as well Very Happy

Listen to me and this goes to you all and I am writing from here not only for this thread but somehow as a joint response also to what I have read from your responses from the sister thread that I 'ressurected'' yesterday, the one titled 'F/A-22 Engine Design' :

locum most thanks for your advice but I can assure you that I read carefully posts this is what I do every time each one of you post and then I write my answer. You wrote your response like I attacked you verbally or something which made me very sad Crying or Very sad

Rest assured that I love all the other forum members a lot and if you were to come and have a nice bottle of ouzo next time to Greece I would be the first to say to the bartender to cater you all specially , no worries. Very Happy

There is not such thing as me trying to convince you that the Raptor is the best and that no opponent(s) will ever emerge.

Actually as you saw me and my excellent friend snypa777 have said that it can happen and that a lot of potential competiting technologies can emerge that we don't know right now.

In fact I totally agree with your comments and I wrote as response to elp and others who thought of the artist's impressions that I posted as nice Photoshop Phantasy concepts that they may indeed come true and that we should all be most carefull before advocating total incapacity to the opponent to offer a response for the F-22A.

Therefoe I once again say that I am somehow sad with the way you chose to write a reply post because somehow it seems that you have some form of issues or something.

May it is just my idea and you did not mean it that way. I am glad already if that's the case.

And now for the notorious thread where issues about security were arisen:

When I started the thread for the Raptor's engine I did not come and tell you please give me the Raptor's secrets so that I can sell them to the Russians and the others.

I had as intention to make if you like more of an educational kind of thread which could help us elaborate for issues about gas turbines in general and then get some connection of all that with the F119s.

Perhaps it was my mistake and you misread me so if that was the case I most sincerely apologise.

Perhaps this was the reason that the thread stayed inactive for a whole year.

I am sure that we have a lot of things to discuss and not let classified info leak.

In this way, and to connect this comments for the sister thread for the engines with the present thread that I am writing from, we will see and justify even more why the Raptor is indeed needed and buy more of these magnificent jets.

I am 30 years old guys and I have a very difficult time in Britain, sorry snypa777 but we have to say the truth ! - to balance University obligations on one hand and work obligations on the other. I by no means live happily right now and I pass through most difficult times.

It is not therefore the style of mine to write as locum said or LordofBunnies long posts and that I don't have a life etc. I know that you said it for fun not to insult me but I am telling you the truth here so that you will get a clearer picture.

In fact I can share with the rest of you here the fact that next week I will go for a very important job interview for a very known defence contractor in Germany. As soon as I have the results I will feel most proud and happy to share them with you.

Sorry for putting so much of own personal info here and I hope that you will not see it as a sign to put me a lot of Off Topic

signs in you reply posts but I want you to know that I respect and appreciate you all.

I see you as good friends and I can't discuss Air Force matters with a lot of people. I would actually say none because nonone that I know is interested in them.

So I see you as a fountain of friendship that's why I write let's say a little more each time I post.

It is not because I lack life or I am a looser or something.

But to come back to your arguments locum I totally agree with what you wrote.

Indeed the direction you propose is the direction that we should all move I think.

And the best proposed direction is one where we accept the Raptor's superiority for the time being but at the same time we accept to be cautious not arrogant and see how to improve this tremendous Fighter jet system even further.

So, by closing I would like to offer a most humaine and friendly remark that whatever you see me write no matter how long or short it is has your best information in mind and it is not an expression of only my personal beliefs but a collection of thoughts and views that I derive from my long contact and friendship from a lot of people far more experienced and accomplished than I am in the Defence field, the Air Force and even in life in general.

Therefore I hope that you will see me as a good addition to the forum, not a boring, long-post associated trouble maker.

Kindest Regards for all,

THODORIS.

THODORIS!

Sorry to hear you are having a tough time in the UK! Keep your chin up mate!
Someone said that there are NO stupid questions asked on F-16.net! If you post any "tricky" questions, someone around here will politely put you straight! Take no offence. I believe there have been instances of people digging for information who are less than "innocent" aviation enthusiasts.

I don`t think LOCUM was having a go at you either, just trying to defend his position. God loves a trier! You will soon learn what to ask and what NOT to ask. Keep on posting Thodoris! Wink

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Here's why the F-22 is needed