Forum: F-22A Raptor

Quote:

The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.

In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing's St. Louis facilities.

"The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed," an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile's radar. "That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community," he said. "Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage]."

THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 "always" beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then "turning into the clutter notch of the F-15's radar," the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which depends on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

Positioned below the F-15, the Su-30 then uses its passive infrared sensor to frame the U.S. fighter against the sky with no background clutter. The Russian fighter then takes its second shot, this time with the IR missile, and accelerates out of danger.

"It works in the simulator every time," the Air Force official said. However, he did point out that U.S. pilots are flying both aircraft in the tests. Few countries maintain a pilot corps with the air-to-air combat skills needed to fly these scenarios, said an aerospace industry official involved in stealth fighter programs.

Those skeptical of the experiments say they're being used to justify the new Aim-9X high-off-boresight, short-range missile and its helmet-mounted cuing system, the F-22 as an air superiority fighter and, possibly, the development of a new long-range air-to-air missile that could match the F-22 radar's ability to find targets at around 120 mi. They contend that the Su-30MK can only get its BVR missile shot off first against a large radar target like the F-15. While it's true that the Su-30 MK would not succeed against the stealthy F-22 or F-35, neither would it regularly beat the nonstealthy (but relatively small radar cross section) F-16 or F/A-18E/F, they said. These analysts don't deny the F-22's value as an air-to-air fighter, but say the aircraft's actual operational value will be greatest in the penetrating strike, air defense suppression and electronic jamming roles.

At the same time, there may be more to the simulations than justifying new weaponry, say European analysts. Also at play are some tactical wrinkles being developed for the more effective use of new Russian missile versions.

Russian Su-27UBs formate with USAF F-15s. While Ex Cope India was the first fully documented DACT with these aircraft, some sources claim that some informal exchanges took place one such visit by Flankers to USA. However this is hotly disputed by others.

The combination of Su-30 and R-27ER/ET (NATO designation AA-10), flown and fought in a competent fashion, also represents a significant threat. Even though the R-27ER is only a semiactive radar-guided missile, the extra maneuvering capability resulting from the large motor is a significant improvement over the basic R-27. Basic Russian air force doctrine has long suggested following a semi-active missile launch immediately with an IR missile launch, such as the R-27ET. Theory has it that the target aircraft's crew will be occupied spoofing the inbound radar missile, only to fall to the second missile.

The R-27ER, while only semiactive, also outperforms the baseline R-77 ( AA-12) in terms of kinematics. The R-77 motor has a simple, and short, burn profile, which has resulted in disappointing performance, piquing the Russian air force's interest in developing the K-77M rather than fielding the basic AA-12 in any numbers. The K-77M (K denotes a missile still in development, while R reflects an inventory weapon) is an upgraded R-77 with improvements that include a larger motor with a burn sequence profiled to increase range.

The oft-touted, but yet-to-be-fielded, R-27EA active variant of the AA-10 could further enhance the Su-30's capabilities, were an export customer to buy the derivative. In terms of one-on-one combat, the second-generation Flanker family presents a considerable threat to aircraft not designed from the outset as low observable, unless they are capable of extended-range BVR missile engagements. For instance, this threat drove the British selection of a rocket-ramjet missile to equip the Eurofighter.

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f15-su30-1.html

F-16.net Sponsor

Thanks for the information. That article is quite informative.
Im glad we have the F-22A.

Now we just need to build more of them to replace our F-15's.

Joined: Dec 16, 2005 - 12:54 PM Posts: 0 Status: Offline

Quote:

Now we just need to build more of them to replace our F-15's.

Couldn't agree more Very Happy

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

About the doppler "clutter notch": It is an ooooold tactic to turn abeam an attacker to try and get the doppler shift to 0, or close enough where the return is filtered. But how does the Su-30 close to a WVR IR shot while maintaining 0 relative velocity?

This does kind of smell like a "bomber gap" scenario...

its all P.R to get the air force to keep its toys.
the U.S.A.F will kick the su30 a#s... with the f-16 & f-15 if it ever had to. a long thread has been running in this forum explaining why these war games arent "real life", and why some air force officials like to promote the su30 great scores against the u.s.a.f.
the other thing is that the much cheaper f-35 will do the job against these su-30 without even breaking a sweat or using afterburner...
f-22 is a great fighter, but in the world today it is not really needed, the air force guys know this and that is why thay are doing eveything to keep it from geting cut in numbers ( cant blame them for trying, but i can blame you guys for buying all that they tell you...)
cheers.
fez.

fezt wrote:

its all P.R to get the air force to keep its toys.
the U.S.A.F will kick the su30 a#s... with the f-16 & f-15 if it ever had to. a long thread has been running in this forum explaining why these war games arent "real life", and why some air force officials like to promote the su30 great scores against the u.s.a.f.
the other thing is that the much cheaper f-35 will do the job against these su-30 without even breaking a sweat or using afterburner...
f-22 is a great fighter, but in the world today it is not really needed, the air force guys know this and that is why thay are doing eveything to keep it from geting cut in numbers ( cant blame them for trying, but i can blame you guys for buying all that they tell you...)
cheers.
fez.

Hey fetz...To follow your logic...Why in the world did we ever build the F-15?? We didn't need it...If we were going to build the F-16 later...The F-16 can kick butt over almost anything out there...What a waste of money for all those F-15's...Geeze...

The F-22A Raptor is a different platform than the F-35...It has capabilities the F-35 will not possess...It was designed as an Air Dominance Fighter...It does other things very very well too...It will be invaluable...

The F-35 will be the F-22A's teammate...

nuff said...

navav2002,
very true, the exact same thing went on 30 years ago, and yes the f-15 was a waste of money, the f-16 could do anything (in the big bicture) that the f-15 could do.
ever heard of the Eagle Mafia, maybe gums or the others who were in the 80's can tell you.
the Mafia made sure the f-15 would get stuff that the 16 didnt in order to keep the 15 numbers up...
today we know- no reason for the 15. and if all that money went into the 16 from day 1 it would be even more awsome then it is and it all would happen allot faster.
Cheers.
fez.

Yes fezt, but we never faced an adversary such as CHina, Russia, North Korea etc. If we were to have to take on a coutry that has an air force full of SU's and well trained pilots, I do believe that the F-15 would have been needed. Thank God that hasnt happened yet! It may be said that becasue of planes like the F-15 and F-22, countries with decent air forces didnt want to go to war with us. To secure peace is to prepare for war. Right!
I think that the F-15 was well worth the money and so will the F-22.

SRTM4 wrote:

Yes fezt, but we never faced an adversary such as CHina, Russia, North Korea etc. If we were to have to take on a coutry that has an air force full of SU's and well trained pilots, I do believe that the F-15 would have been needed. Thank God that hasnt happened yet! It may be said that becasue of planes like the F-15 and F-22, countries with decent air forces didnt want to go to war with us. To secure peace is to prepare for war. Right!
I think that the F-15 was well worth the money and so will the F-22.

Nope,
the f-16 could do all the job, with just about the same results( thats almost a fact).
i believe the same thing about the f-22 VS f-35, but i do agreee it is too soon to say, if i were a betting man i would bet that there isnt a real reason of keeping the f-22,but we will wait and see.
cheers.
fezt.

fezt wrote:

SRTM4 wrote:

Yes fezt, but we never faced an adversary such as CHina, Russia, North Korea etc. If we were to have to take on a coutry that has an air force full of SU's and well trained pilots, I do believe that the F-15 would have been needed. Thank God that hasnt happened yet! It may be said that becasue of planes like the F-15 and F-22, countries with decent air forces didnt want to go to war with us. To secure peace is to prepare for war. Right!
I think that the F-15 was well worth the money and so will the F-22.

Nope,
the f-16 could do all the job, with just about the same results( thats almost a fact).
i believe the same thing about the f-22 VS f-35, but i do agreee it is too soon to say, if i were a betting man i would bet that there isnt a real reason of keeping the f-22,but we will wait and see.
cheers.

fezt.

Keeping the F22 will give the US global dominance for years to come. Sure the F35 will dominate in its own right ,but it will be real nice knowing that we have undeniable dominane over the skies for a long time.
I know that its nice to be an American. I enjoy having my cake and eating it too here in the USA. No other country is so lucky. I want the best protecting my spoiled American ways. I want my Kids to have everything that I got to enjoy in life. F22's and F35's will help insure that!!!

Too me...It boils down to this...If you were in the cockpit...and a fight was imminent...Which cockpit would YOU want to be in?? My vote is F-22A Raptor...Hands down...

If you were tasked to fly into a heavily defended area...Same question...For me Same Answer...

So how about your Son or Doughter??

I want the best for anyone who is defending our nation...If He/She is willing to fight for our country....I want them in the Best we have to offer...

Why havn't we lost an F-15 in Aerial combat...Because it was the Best we had to offer...

Now the F-22A Raptor is the best we have to offer... Cheers

SRTM4 wrote:

fezt wrote:

SRTM4 wrote:

Yes fezt, but we never faced an adversary such as CHina, Russia, North Korea etc. If we were to have to take on a coutry that has an air force full of SU's and well trained pilots, I do believe that the F-15 would have been needed. Thank God that hasnt happened yet! It may be said that becasue of planes like the F-15 and F-22, countries with decent air forces didnt want to go to war with us. To secure peace is to prepare for war. Right!
I think that the F-15 was well worth the money and so will the F-22.

Nope,
the f-16 could do all the job, with just about the same results( thats almost a fact).
i believe the same thing about the f-22 VS f-35, but i do agreee it is too soon to say, if i were a betting man i would bet that there isnt a real reason of keeping the f-22,but we will wait and see.
cheers.

fezt.

Keeping the F22 will give the US global dominance for years to come. Sure the F35 will dominate in its own right ,but it will be real nice knowing that we have undeniable dominane over the skies for a long time.
I know that its nice to be an American. I enjoy having my cake and eating it too here in the USA. No other country is so lucky. I want the best protecting my spoiled American ways. I want my Kids to have everything that I got to enjoy in life. F22's and F35's will help insure that!!!

if only life was so simple...
in theory, you are correct.
in the real world, you may have it good, but many in the U.S are poor,and many have problems. i am not going to take this thread to a political path with left wing remarks like "we dont need bombs, we need to feed the poor etc'" thats not were im going too..
i am going to say, that with the f-35, you are going to have the same security you will have with the f-22 and the f-35 together (in the big picture sense) that is my professional opinion not a political one, and you will have billions of $ to put in other places.
in short, you cant realy have your cake and eat it too, so you are going to have to decide.
cheers.
fezt.

Quote:

Nope,
the f-16 could do all the job, with just about the same results( thats almost a fact).
i believe the same thing about the f-22 VS f-35, but i do agreee it is too soon to say, if i were a betting man i would bet that there isnt a real reason of keeping the f-22,but we will wait and see.
cheers.
fezt.

Two things. What exactly is almost a fact? and I have flown with/against the Eagles and they have capabilities that we just don't. Part of our limitation is simply the size of the radar and related components. Good luck shoehorning them into a Viper. And we can put very capable systems in the Viper now, but 30 years ago these systems were large, heavy, and simply wouldn't fit. The Viper might be capable of doing a decent job in the BVR arena now, but that has only happened in the last 10-12 years and the Eagle is still better. We needed it then, and we'll need it right now if we face an AF with a large number of Fulcrums/Flankers.

The F-22 wasn't built to be as good as the percieved threat (which was the Flanker when the Raptor was first put on paper). It was built to absolutely dominate a Flanker, and it will. It was also to be at least on par with their next generation aircraft; and with the history of the Eagle having the same basic requirements/percieved threat level at the time, I think the Raptor will prove to be the reason that the US will have air dominance for the next 20 years. It's worth whatever money that costs. Period.

2sBlind wrote:

Quote:

Nope,
the f-16 could do all the job, with just about the same results( thats almost a fact).
i believe the same thing about the f-22 VS f-35, but i do agreee it is too soon to say, if i were a betting man i would bet that there isnt a real reason of keeping the f-22,but we will wait and see.
cheers.
fezt.

Two things. What exactly is almost a fact? and I have flown with/against the Eagles and they have capabilities that we just don't. Part of our limitation is simply the size of the radar and related components. Good luck shoehorning them into a Viper. And we can put very capable systems in the Viper now, but 30 years ago these systems were large, heavy, and simply wouldn't fit. The Viper might be capable of doing a decent job in the BVR arena now, but that has only happened in the last 10-12 years and the Eagle is still better. We needed it then, and we'll need it right now if we face an AF with a large number of Fulcrums/Flankers.

The F-22 wasn't built to be as good as the percieved threat (which was the Flanker when the Raptor was first put on paper). It was built to absolutely dominate a Flanker, and it will. It was also to be at least on par with their next generation aircraft; and with the history of the Eagle having the same basic requirements/percieved threat level at the time, I think the Raptor will prove to be the reason that the US will have air dominance for the next 20 years. It's worth whatever money that costs. Period.

dont agree,
the only reason the f-16 wasnt so good in bvr was because the eagle mafia made sure all the money and capabiltys went to the eagle.
i can only guess you dont fly the newer version of the viper, because the newer versions are better then the eagles (not talking about the eagles with the raptors radar that i have learned are flying now).
going to war? what kind of a question is that? if you wanted to go to war bombing stuff in a heavy threatend area you would want the viper, not the eagle, and you would want the f-35 not the f-22.
cheers.
fez.

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Here's why the F-22 is needed