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Sadly, the Raptor would take 4 or 6 Vipers no problem. I wish it wasn't true that the mighty Viper is now outclassed, even the Blk 60's, but one must face the truth.

Back on topic: Is there an AF out there that 183 Raptors won't be able to handle? Right now, no. In 10 years, most probably not. In 20 years, we should have something cosmic by then (I hope).

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Elite Joined: Oct 21, 2005 Posts: 757 Status: Offline

Sniper69 wrote:

Thanks Roscoe!

Elmendorf is supposed to be getting a sqauadron too. I think Guam was being thrown around as a possiblilty as well.

Elmendorf AFB actually is scheduled to get a wing’s worth. Normally that would be 48 aircraft, but may be slightly lowered because the Raptor is so much more effective than the aircraft it is replacing, thus a one-for-one replacement may not be necessary, but not set in stone either.

[/quote]

Elite Joined: Oct 21, 2005 Posts: 757 Status: Offline

229guy wrote:

Hmmm AT 133 million a pop you could buy 6 F-16's per Raptor.

Fill the sky with F-16's and the raptor has no chance. You don't need stealth when so many F-16's are in the sky you could see the raptor! Two Cents

I’m going to put in my Two Cents

and rant here because I’ve heard this argument before.

Funny that sometimes people use the analogy that for 1 Raptor, you can buy X amount of this aircraft or that aircraft. Consider this. With six F-16s, for example, for one Raptor, six F-16 (or whatever plane you like to insert here) will be killed easily. Six “X-model” aircraft, with all it’s associated weapons, fuel, and most importantly, pilot is killed. That’s just one F-22A and that’s not even considering using its two AIM-9M/Xs and 480 rounds of 20MM ammo. Consider a two-ship F-22A. Now the potential kill ratio goes up by 2X with the potential to kill SIXTEEN aerial targets (not including using their gun). A three-ship, TWENTY FOUR aerial targets. Standard four-ship, THIRTY TWO aerial targets. Now consider how much dollar loss those Raptors can effect on an opposing Air Force and country.

Because of stealth, supercruise, integrated avionics, and unmatched maneuverability/agility (both at low AND high speeds) the Raptor pilot(s) will have complete control of the situation. He can choose HOW to engage and WHERE to engage because he has the unprecedented integrated avionics/situational awareness to make that decision, the performance to get into or out of harms way if he so chooses, and stealth to enhance his effectiveness (both offensively and defensively) and survival. Or simply the Raptor pilot can just choose to ignore an unimportant threat and they will never know it.

As ViperEnforcer mentioned, current F-16s are not getting any cheaper. The effectiveness of the Raptor over anything out there now or even thought of on the drawing boards is vast. It is one reason why the Air Force feels so strongly about the Raptor and so adamant about getting it. Is it expensive? At about $130 million a copy, but can do all these things and what it can do against a superior number threat, I say it’s damn worth it. If anything, we should be getting more to drive that unit flyaway cost down.

Joined: Dec 16, 2005 Posts: 0 Status: Offline

In addition or expansion if you prefer of what Scorpion1alpha mentioned above I could say that all the exchange ratios that were mentioned could be argued that not only they are true but they take under consideration the initial Raptor's capability.

This will be greatly enhanced as time passes by.

Once the new generation Air-Air missiles start entering service within the USAF and arrive at Raptor squads the Raptor will be able to hit even further, far many more targets and of course employ the stealth, supercruise ,integrated avionics as well its aerodynamic handling characteristics to pursue other targets or withdraw safely once its weapons load is depleted.

Importantly enough the enemy pilots will not even know that the Raptor(s) is/are gone ...

Think about it for a while....

Let's say that a couple or perhaps three 4-ship formations of SU-30s just got blown away by some AIM-120s launched by a Raptor formation which is assumed to be a single 4-ship formation for our scenario analysis.

If other enemy pilots are still in the air, and based on the devastating results that their fellow airmen just experienced, they will also be forced to either withdraw also or change tactics accordingly to a far more defensive nature.

Thoughts in their heads will be that the Raptor formation has not withdrawn yet or that other formations may be larking around waiting for more victims to join the battle.

All this lack of situational awareness that we all speak so much about when it comes to aerial combat is undoubtedly a most serious reason for an Air Force which will attempt to face the Raptor to be forced to either enter with a very serious attrition possibility - exchange ratio - or withdraw all-together with the obvious consequences for the outcome of the conflict in question.

The resume for all the thoughts mentioned above is that the Raptor's stealth will greatly impose a psychological weight on enemy forces which in turn degrade significantly moral.

Trying to fight against some people in some planes that you don't even know the whereabouts is suicide let alone huge waste of resources. No Air Force can overlook either of these facts.

Someone may continue though to argue against the Raptor and say :

''OK, but what about that 1 or 2 aircraft that will survive the BVR salvo and manage to at least put eyes on one of the jets of the F-22A formation... ?''

To that argument the following could be added in F-22As defense :

1. First, the far better Situation awareness of the Raptor Pilot allows him or her to be first in the right placement and pointing of his or her jet as soon as the battle will begin.

I have seen a lot of people in various military aviation forums argue this or that about what combo is the best, AIM-9X with JHMCS or SCHLEM with R-73 Mod 1 or 2 or say ASRAAM or IRIS-T with PIRATE and HMS support in an EF-2000 let alone the Python 4/5 of the French MICA.

As a son of former Air Force General of the Hellenic Air Force who also served as commanding officer in the Greek Fighter Weapons School I could tell you that the technical support is of a second nature if the pilots can not know basic information about the other opponent's movements.

You see all these nice marvels, like AIM-9s, AA-11s, ASRAAMs and MICAs and mark my words carefully because I work as well with defense matters right now as well, don't just shoot planes down by themselves.

It is the training of the pilots that does the job for the Air Force's shake not just a seeker and a helmet.

2. So OK, the pilot of the enemy formation has managed to know where to look correctly and spotted the Raptor. Now what ?

Good for him is the answer. But what about the OTHER planes. Who is the person that can tell me from FIRST HAND experience about an Air Force which has either the training, technical support to A. Locate B. Identify C. Engage and D. Shoot multiple stealth aircraft formations by just using a single plane ?

So......, Any voices ? Any more anti-Raptor critique ?

No ?

Nice. So I thought.

You see the poor lad that just thought that will pass into history as the first combat pilot that shot down an F-22A in actual combat may just pass as another victim of war.

His name will have only the following three letters next to it : KIA We all know what KIA means after all this is not a babies forum....

3. Now if things indeed ended bad and The inevitable happened and that AA-11 is coming straight for the Raptor.

Defensive Aids are not other jets privileges.... The F-22A has incorporated and will proceed on integrating technologies that can defeat even these seemingly formidable threats.

Once again - and I think the whole company media or the way that the defense industry works, who knows - were responsible for making Gods out of some systems that were never evaluated in combat.

I very much doubt even if that missile was to come towards the Raptor that it would manage to do its trick.

To finish off here then I believe that you must have realized that if I was to add a paragraph 4 here saying that an F-22A indeed got shot down the USAF would have taken out a whole squadron of the opponent.

So ladies and gentlemen, instead of replying to this post with another one quoting this or that site from the Net with Air-Air missiles data which are sour grapes anyway and I have read it while you weren't even born and from far more reliable sources I would just advise you to do the following :

Think that you are Air Force Chief of Staff in an Air Force which has just entered war with the USAF. You just lost a whole bunch of aircraft let alone your most precious 'material' : YOUR PILOTS.

What would you think now ? About the Raptor that got shot down ? I very much doubt it.

What you would think of is how stupid I must be not to literally rush to the President or Prime Minister of my country and tell him or her to literally stop what we are doing RIGHT NOW if we don't want to loose half if not all of the territories of our country.

So the Air Force wants 183 Raptors the thread's title says... xmmmmm

Good for them I reply, adding also that the USAF has every right to claim ALL the Raptors that could be originally produced and we all know more or less that this was close to 700 AIRCRAFT.

USAF or LM guys correct me please but wasn't it some 677 jets ? Or 675 ? Just mention the number 'cause I know I am not far after.

However, and for a number of non-thinkers and seemingly well meant people from various sources who know so much about Air Force matters as a three year old knows about nuclear physics the US Air Force from one which MUST have the first say in the international politics and military affairs can easily be converted to one with little if anything to offer at all in the years to come if their nice tricks that they have the nerve to call proper economic and political policies prevail.

So and as I said in the sister thread which was devoted to welcome the F-22A into operational service I hope that logic will prevail and that the number at least of the initial aircraft will enter normally service with no further delays.

Then USAFs primary aim is to bring the orders tally to the original number.

It will be the toughest war the USAF will ever have to fight but it is more than just worthwhile if it means that it will preserve the honor and tradition of the service and preserve the lifes or God only knows how many US soldiers who no one will go and cry of they get killed in a war but their own family.

So the F-22A main enemy is not coming primarily from outside the US but rather within it.

It will have to take countless threads to elaborate on how many Raptor are said that are enough with how many are indeed enough but I am sure that if the now classified data were to become available that the total force of the 670+ Raptors would be the best thing to do.

I know that many of you out there would disagree with me but f-16.net is based on principles of democracy not fascism.

So by offering the opinions above I am sure that some people will understand that what has just started this month is with no doubt the most important step in USAF's history in the 21st century and together with it a quite important event in Defense Matters around the world.

It is sure that potential opponents of the USAF right now will start to take things definitely more easy and let the bla bla bla go away for a while.

As for USAF and F-22 Industrial Partner Guys : Work, Plan as hard as you can. A lot of people are with you know, know how hard you work and you are not alone.

Kind Regards for all,

THODORIS.

Elite Joined: May 11, 2004 Posts: 2890 Status: Offline

THODORIS - Well said Thumb

!

One other angle that I haven't seen presented yet is the negative side of the multiple aircraft for one Raptor arguement. Let's say that we went with four F-16s for the price of one Raptor. That would be four airframes to support - four engines vs. two, four maintenance crews vs. one, four pilots vs. one, four times the life support troops, four times the FUEL Shocked

etc. Add it all up and the Raptor gives you a lot more bang for the buck...

Joined: Dec 16, 2005 Posts: 0 Status: Offline

parrothead - Most thanks for your good words. Thumb

Anyway straight to our sweet Raptor and its amazing capabilities.

You are touching a topic which can allow us to post for hours on end.

Yes, it is indeed very much true. Single Raptor formations can replace entire package formations composed of older fighters simply because Raptor's survivability and mission effectiveness are so high.

Let's assume then another scenario this time to illustrate best what our friend parrothead and others talk about.

We are going to conduct an OCA Strike against an enemy airfield. We are considering an hypothetical scenario 5-10 years from now.

The distance of our airfield from that enemy airstrip is about 1,000 n.m. so we are talking very deep strike air operations practically even touching on strategic kind ones.

I am putting this distance so as to illustrate the Raptor's strong points in practice rather theory, be patient and you will see.

So OCA Strike 1000 n.m. distance to target.

Enemy Air Defenses :

The airfield is an operating base of SU-30MKs. Three squadrons are resident there and we will assume an 85% readiness rate for these 18-aircraft strong squadrons. So at any moment at least 46 out of the 54 can be airborne. (We can elaborate a lot on the ifs and buts about squads of Flankers and their maintainability rates but the 85% will do for the time being.)

The Flankers, from now aka RED JETS, will be assumed to be equipped with the latest available Russian-made or other compatible make AESA radar. The same applies for their IRST suites as well as electronic countermeasures.

Armament consists of all future advanced extended range versions of R-77 be it active, passive or IIR as well as R-74s for close engagements. All their pilots wear latest generation HMS to be used as a complete combo with the R-74s.

Finally the Engines will be the uprated AL-41Fs.

xmmm let's see did I forget something ? ... No... OK the Flankers are good to go then.

SAMs : SAMs are S-400 and S-300 variety. We will take under consideration that SA-10s, SA-12s and SA-15s are complemented by the older SA-6s and SA-3s. Man portable SAMs of various Russian and European makes also present.

AAA : Unknown number and type of ZSU units are reported to be present in the area by intel. Low level flights are advised to plan accordingly.

The RED JETS are supported by three plus three AWACS/AIR REFUEL TANKER flights. Three A-50 Mainstay and three Il-78 Midas respectively.

GCI units can be assumed to exist for the RED JETS also.

Last but not least Data Links for all the RED JETS guys to receive/transmit from other members/AWACS/GCI.

I think that I have put the most difficult level combat scenario for the time being.

All flight will be assumed to take place above land. No sea/ocean overflying will occur. (This will be other mission planning analysis for a future separate post).

The terrain is quite rough with peaks around 10,000-15,000 feet and the operation will take place during winter and at night.

Take of time 02:00 hours. TOT for various package flights to be advised accordingly.

Here then we are having the following choices :

1. We will plan the operation based on a USAF which will use EXCLUSIVELY LOW OBSERVABLE aircraft and a second planning with CONVENTIONAL or LOW RCS aircraft.

A. LOW OBSERVABLE AIRCRAFT COMPOSED PACKAGES.

So we know that enough F-22s exist and we want to use them as soon as possible to take the airstrip out. A full 18- aircraft strong squad is available and a further at least 8 jets can arrive in short notice.

Next question after the who is going to do the job is what has to be done.

First, no Flankler or A-50s/Il-78s can be allowed to survive.

Two 4-ship formations there perform OCA with full load of AIM-120/AIM-9Xs.

So first 2 packages are the Escorts :

FLIGHT 1 - CALLSIGN : LANGLEY ACES

4xF-22A
OCA
2xAIM-9X
6xAIM-12OX* (* = advanced AMRAAM version considered)
450x20mm for cannon

FLIGHT 2 - CALLSIGN : TYNDALL ACES

4xF-22A
OCA
2xAIM-9X
6xAIM-12OX* (* = advanced AMRAAM version considered)
450x20mm for cannon

Now, We want to take out definitely the two runways of course (parallel headings), the fuel and ammo storage bankers and a number of about 40-50 shelters also are top priority since due to winter conditions the non-flying SU-30s will be stationed in them. NO Aircraft is parked outside.

A-G Weapon for the F-22A will be JDAMS. 2 GBU-31s for each jet are assumed. Also 2 AIM-9X is carried along a pair of advanced version AIM-120. (Bear with me if this weapon load is not available/certified or anything today we are considering a future 10 year scenario for the time being).

It is considered that a number of 7-8 JDAMS are needed for each of the two runways. So 16 bomb drops are necessary to take the two strips out = 8 F-22A.

Hence first package of our Air Tasking Order (ATO) :

FLIGHT 3 - CALLSIGN : DEATH DEALER

4xF-22A
OCA STRIKE
2xAIM-9X
2xAIM-12OX* (* = advanced AMRAAM version considered)
2xGBU-31
450x20mm for cannon

FLIGHT 4 - CALLSIGN : BLACK THUNDER

4xF-22A
OCA STRIKE
2xAIM-9X
2xAIM-12OX* (* = advanced AMRAAM version considered)
2xGBU-31
450x20mm for cannon

One more 4 ship formation needed for fuel/ammo facilities.

FLIGHT 5 - CALLSIGN : BLUE SPYDERS

4xF-22A
OCA STRIKE
2xAIM-9X
2xAIM-12OX* (* = advanced AMRAAM version considered)
2xGBU-31
450x20mm for cannon

Finally, the shelters will be attacked about 4-5 hours later as soon as the 12 A-G Strike jets are back from the first three sorties.

The very same three 4-ship formations with identical payload will again be used as above. For both attrition or maintenance issues based purposes 4-5 spare aircraft exist to fill the packages/flights.

So the whole operation will take place during a 5-6 hour basis since the Raptor with it's supercruise at about 40,000 feet will be able to cover the 1,000 n.m. in about say 1 hour or 1 hour 10 minutes worst case.

Since we use the F-22A all these SAMs and AAAs have immediately become some second nature since all attacks are conducted well outside any range of them and those that ccould launch that high can not have the means to see us there anyway.

So first important aspect : F-22As STEALTH EFFECTIVELY ELIMINATES/NEGATES THE SAMs/AAAs.

Secondly : Supercruise has allowed us to penetrate without all the hastles of low level fight. The Raptor crews arrived on the target undetected dropped cargo safely and are ready to take the potentially SU30-packed shelters as well with no losses.

Third then : Total destruction of even aircraft assets on the ground for no losses.

Finally what about all those Flanker circling around ?

Well they both see or hear the JDAMS falling on their nice squadron cantine and their sandwiches being burned along with the rest of their Flankers.

Since their AESA is no match for the stealth cloak of the Raptor the Ambush CAP they are performing is of no real use here.

Furthermore they have to alter their tactics since more Raptors can be in the area undetected also. And indeed they are since we devoted two flights just for that.

Last but not least, the best of them all : Their base just got cooked. With no divert airfield close and all Tankers down for sure as well after the devastating surprise effect of our OCA Raptor friends performing Air Corridor Opening many jets either attempt to do emergency landings, other practice the use of the K-36D ejection seats and others simply pray.

So......

Newspaper Front Page Story Titles on the day immediately after the attack :

Massive USAF success yesterday. In an unprecedented success strike the US Air Force attacked yesterday the {RED NAME} airfield.

Both runways as well as other vital facilities together with some almost the complete number of the airbase's aircraft were destroyed both on the ground as well as in the air.

Air Force Chief of Staff , General {RED NAME} has resigned today and the country is in total chaos.

Negotiations take place with Washington for a peaceful solution to the crisis and all our {RED NAME} Armed Forces have accepted to return back and restore the original borders as the majority of political leaders leaded by US President {BLUE NAME} and UN authorities have demanded.

Fears for further retaliation exist and further attacks are expected in event of non-compliance to NATO-UN orders.......

Nice isn't it ? You don't read things like that every day ! This is what we wanted !

SO IF USAF BUYS MORE RAPTORS NOW AND THAT'S WHAT THEY WILL GET.

Now let's see what can happen if USAF DOESN'T GET MORE RAPTORS.

B. CONVENTIONAL AIRCRAFT/REDUCED RCS AIRCRAFT PACKAGES.

Well, this is the kind of ATO that if I was a General I wouldn't like to have to draw.

I am about to go against Hell it self with none of my sweet F-22As around......

So...

I will have to get as many F-15Cs as mother Mc Donnell Douglas has ever produced.

At least 7-8 flights are needed if a pace is to be kept against the Flanker's at all.

Stealth is not with us any more so the Eagle's need to have all the goodies from airframe and engines to avionics and armament that we have ever read in every magazine, book, Net site or Defense Company's brochure.

I will take it that you all know what an improved Eagle is all about as far it's spec is concerned so I am not going to further elaborate it here.

I will just mention that the 7-8 BLUE FLIGHTS of them performing both OCA as well as ESCORT roles will carry 6 AIM-120s and 2AIM-9Xs with JHMCS support and that three 600 USG external tanks will be carried.

So,

FLIGHTS 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, - CALLSIGNS : BLUED LEADERS 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,

4XF-15C (X) 8 = 32 JETS

4XAIM-120*
2xAIM-9X
3X600 USG

The Deep OCA Strike will have to be the province of F-15Es again. The Vipers will be able of course to join but due to range both the two 370 USG tanks are needed as well as the 300 USG centerline. Gone then are the ALQ pods. No ECM sorry.

That means that they could be most useful with CBUs and Mk-20s against the AAA formations or take out the batteries of SAMs once their radars are out of action.

So how many strike jet's ?

Well 2 4-ship F-15E formations needed again for runways. LGBs with LANTIRNs and possibly mixed JDAM/LGB configurations highly probable.

Also 1 4-ship to take vital facilities like the fuel/ammo storage bankers and other high value targets.

Then all the shelters will need to go by using either the F-15Es or even further F-16s assisted possibly even by F/A-18E/Fs from remote carrier positions if they are close enough to launch. If all else fails take F-111s out of storage !

Then you have to put SEAD Escort/SEAD Strike...

Oh and what about tankers for theneeds of all that endless parade of jets ?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I give up ........................ The post is already hugeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

And apart from giving up I will not buy the next day's newspaper to read about our defeat.

Seriously now you must have understood that the operational effectiveness of a single F-22A squadron equals practically almost 7-8 times the force of conventional jets and that's in relative terms. The true value can be even more hard to swallow if other not mentioned considerations are taken into account.

Since neither the SAMs/AAAs or the Air Defense Fighters will be written off without taking heavy price losses on behalf of both USAFs as well as USNs/USMCs jets it is very easy to see that the effectiveness of the Raptor is huge compared to a jet like F-15, F-16. That jet (F-22A) gets other guys down for breakfast then goes up again like nothing happened.

This stealth jet also went throw bombs returned home then went back again came also back from the second sortie and both it's pilot as well as itself can leave again for a third sortie courtesy of stealth, supercruise and advanced tactics/methodology weapons release practices.

While the JDAMS fall safely outside the ''trash fire'' of AAAs and/or SAMs the same ''trash fire'' that F-15Es and F-16Cs will have to get into so as to hit their targets the Raptor enjoys safety and then can proceed top other targets or guide fellow planes to do their duty also due to its top class Situation Awareness avionics.

Enter the battle first, leave last from it. This is the Raptor's motto.

While the -15s and -16s try to share duties and rely heavily on each other's
a$$ for survival the F-22A guys perform like a well co-ordinated practically fully automated war machine. Each Raptor Pilot is acting to threats so quickly and decidedly like being almost a reflex action while their conventional jet counterparts pray not to be the next AA-12s or AA-11s victim.

The cloak of a metal marble size object's RCS is the quality which no matter what you will throw on an F-15 or F-16 to make it get it right will never be there.

Neither the tweaked F100 or F110 equal the thunder thrust of the F119s on the back of the Raptor. (God Bless you PW !).

As for the APG-77 with all it's army of designations regarding mode of opearations/components etc which denote most attention to practically every detail of future air operations can not have equals on APG-68s or even APG-80s and other F-15 based AESAs........

It HAS to sit in our stomachs :

This jet which just spread it's wings to be the USAF's spear head did not come from nowhere.

So let's wish good luck to the F-15 and F-16 and at last turn the page on that part of aviation history...

Next lecture from professor THODORIS will focus on combined land/naval operations.

Let's sink that Kirov...... !

Veteran Joined: Feb 06, 2004 Posts: 385 Status: Offline

Congress controls the checkbook, if you want more you have to get to them, i.e. Randy Cunningham.

Joined: Dec 16, 2005 Posts: 0 Status: Offline

quote]Congress controls the checkbook, if you want more you have to get to them, i.e. Randy Cunningham.[/quote]

Thanks vinnie I am on my way. Laughing

Newbie Joined: Nov 27, 2005 Posts: 13 Status: Offline

Ahhhhhhh! I could read stuff like this all day long! Some of you guys never cease to amaze me.
Very well put Raptorfighterpilot!

Joined: Dec 16, 2005 Posts: 0 Status: Offline

Thanks SRTM4. I see that we are on the same path !

Elite Joined: Oct 21, 2005 Posts: 757 Status: Offline

"DEATH DEALER". "BLACK THUNDER". "BLUE SPYDERS".

My, those are some pretty creative names there THODORIS/RaptorFighterPilot. I like them! Laughing

I'm glad to see your enthusiasm for the mighty Raptor. Very Happy

Joined: Dec 16, 2005 Posts: 0 Status: Offline

Quote:

"DEATH DEALER". "BLACK THUNDER". "BLUE SPYDERS".

My, those are some pretty creative names there THODORIS/RaptorFighterPilot. I like them!

I'm glad to see your enthusiasm for the mighty Raptor.

Most Thanks Scorpion1apha !!! Very Happy

I think that they personify the Raptor to its maximum extend. !!!!! Very Happy

I am actually using callisigns from actual flights that I head from real USAF pilots when they came for DACT exercises in Greece !!!!

Regards,

THODORIS.

Elite Joined: Dec 19, 2005 Posts: 659 Status: Offline

Really the only resaonable solution is a joint buy of F-22's to bring down the unit price. This could be done with the USAF placing a order for a second batch with two or three other prospect of partners doing the same. For example the next hot spot in the world will surely be the Pacific. Right now the RAAF has expressed a deep interest in the Raptor. Also, Japan has a large fleet of F-15's that it will need to replace in the near future. Further, both countries are very close US Allies. So, have all three place a order at the same time.......(i.e. USAF, RAAF, and JASDF) Talk about a Win-Win....................

Veteran Joined: Jul 21, 2005 Posts: 471 Status: Offline

The only 2 countries that would probably ever get offered the 22 are Britain and Japan. Even a toned down version of the 22 is still the best fighter (not counting the US version) in the world. We really never want to have to fight these guys, even if we learn good tactics against it at Red Flag, it is meant to be the best damn thing in the world and will sh**kick anything else right now. I think the US is afraid that an ally would turn on them and they'd have to face it. I think we're paying extra right now for our security blanket. Also, how long was it before the 15 was sold internationally? Was it immediate or did it take a few years?

Quote:

Also, how long was it before the 15 was sold internationally? Was it immediate or did it take a few years?

Good question, anybody know? Absolutely right that we REALLY don't want to ever have to fight against this thing. It's bad enough that we brief the Tomcat as a threat because we sold them to Iran.... I can't imagine sitting in a brief talking about facing a Raptor for real.....

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Forum: F-22A Raptor

Airforce want 183 raptors...