F-16.net

Printed from: F-16.net - The Ultimate F-16 Reference [http://www.f-16.net]
Document title: F-16.net - F-22 and F-35 RCS revealed by USAF :: F-16.net :: The Ultimate F-16 Reference
Original URL: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-4408-sid-45495bbf534416c9c88e11502eea0e76.html
Printed on: 07 September 2008

Forum: F-22A Raptor

F-22 and F-35 RCS revealed by USAF



Search Search  Register Register  Log in to check your private messages Log in to check your private messages
guidelines Forum Guidelines
Post new topic   Reply to topic   1, 2, 3, 4  Next
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Author Message
boff180
PostPosted: Nov 28, 2005 - 01:53 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite
Elite


Joined: Jun 29, 2005
Posts: 781

Status: Offline
Yes I am not BS'ing... I'll copy/paste the article below but to cut a long story short....

F-22 = metal marble
F-35 = metal golf ball (slightly less than B-2).

Quote:
November 25, 2005: The U.S. Air Force, in it’s effort to get money to build more F-22s, has revealed just how “stealthy” the F-22 is. It’s RCS (Radar Cross Section) is the equivalent, for a radar, to a metal marble. The less stealthy (and much cheaper) F-35, is equal to a metal golf ball. The F-35 stealthiness is a bit better than the B-2 bomber, which, in turn, was twice as good as that on the even older F-117. Much older aircraft, like the B-52, have a huge RCS, which makes them very easy to spot on radar. But with a smaller RCS, it's more likely that the aircraft won't be detected at all.

The air force revealed this information, which is usually kept secret, because it wants to make the case that it makes more sense to cut production of the F-35 (which cost $30-50 million each), so that more F-22s (that cost over $100 million each) can be bought. Most of the air force generals are former fighter pilots, and the F-22 is a much hotter fighter than the F-35 (which is basically a fighter-bomber, with emphasis on the latter function.) This is causing an international uproar, because of the many foreign countries that are buying the F-35. Some of these countries have contributed money for the development of the F-35. The F-22 will not be exported, because it uses so much top secret technology.


It also seems there is truth in the news reports the F-35A is for the chop.

Andy
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Sponsor
New postPosted: Sep 07, 2008 - 9:41 AM Back to top
F-16.net Sponsor






This message from our sponsor will disappear if you log on as a member.
   
 
toan
PostPosted: Nov 28, 2005 - 02:32 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite
Elite


Joined: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 535

Status: Offline
There are different size of Marbles.................

http://glassmarbles.com/size.htm

The range of the diameter for glassy marbles is from 12mm to 42mm, and according to the formula, the range of cross resection area for glassy marbles could be from 0.0001m2 to 0.0014m2..........

As for the marbles with the most common size (14.4mm and 16mm in diameter), their cross resection area shall be 0.00016m2 and 0.0002m2.....
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
elp
PostPosted: Nov 28, 2005 - 03:05 PM Reply with quote Back to top
F-16.net Editor
F-16.net Editor


Joined: Sep 23, 2003
Posts: 2832

If JSF is a golf ball..... it is an "X -OUT". Laughing

_________________
- ELP -
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail  
 
toan
PostPosted: Nov 28, 2005 - 03:21 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite
Elite


Joined: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 535

Status: Offline
The standard golf ball today is 1.68 inch (4.2672 cm) in diameter.

According to formula, its cross resection area shall be around 0.00143m2, which is about 7~9 times bigger than the minimal frontal RCS of F/A-22, but 1/35~1/70 of the frontal RCS of the western NG LO-fighters such as EF-2000, Rafale, F/A-18E/F, and so on.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
LordOfBunnies
PostPosted: Nov 28, 2005 - 03:29 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 471

Status: Offline
These are also figures they're releasing to the public, I'm pretty sure they still have the actual value locked in a vault somewhere. The real values are probably also much smaller than what's available to the public. Best to not show your cards and all that.

_________________
Please bear with me... I'm still learning.
Peace through superior firepower.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Capt-soap
PostPosted: Nov 28, 2005 - 04:22 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster


Joined: Nov 02, 2005
Posts: 72

Status: Offline
At what range would a block 50 f-16 radar,pick up a marble?
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
The_Mastiff
PostPosted: Nov 28, 2005 - 04:35 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active member
Active member


Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Posts: 116
Location: Raleigh NC
Status: Offline
Toan, I knew I'd read somewhere the F22 had a lower RCS than the F117.(Per last conversation). I still haven't found the book it's in though.:'). Too many books, too little time ( typical old guy excuse).

While were on the subject if you redo your charts please try to include the Captor vs. Steel Marble. Thanks, JL Raleigh NC
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
toan
PostPosted: Nov 28, 2005 - 04:56 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite
Elite


Joined: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 535

Status: Offline
A UK test pilot declared that the maximum Air-to-air "tracking range" of CAPTOR radar is "significantly longer" than the 100 miles / 161km. (Source: AFM magazine 05/2004)

The same test pilot declared that with the help of Meteor AAM, the EF-2000 could attack the multiple aero-targets (up to 8 targets) as far as 200km away at the same time theoretically. (Source: RAF magazine 06/2004)

During the test, the CAPTOR radar showed the capability of tracking up to 20 air targets (F-4 and Mig-29) simultaneously 160~185 km away and then automatically identifying and prioritising them. (Source: EADS)

The RCS of the Mig-29 is about 5m2 class, so these informations may hint that CAPTOR radar now can "track" (not just detect) RCS = 5m2 class target 160~185 km away. According to the basic formula for the relationship between Target's RCS and Radar's effective detective / tracking range:

The maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR to F/A-22 (Minimal frontal RCS = 0.0001~0.0002m2 class) in head-to-head engagement should be 16~24 km / 11~15 km now theoretically.

According to the PDF at:
http://www.iee.org/oncomms/pn/radar/Roulston.pdf

I think that the figure in page 15 showed that the CAPTOR with AESA-upgrade's detective / tracking range is about 75% longer than the CAPTOR radar now.

So after 2012~2015, the maximally effective detective / tracking range of CAPTOR-AESA to F/A-22 (Frontal RCS = 0.0001~0.0002 m2 class) should be 28~42 km / 19~26 km theoretically.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
The_Mastiff
PostPosted: Nov 28, 2005 - 06:22 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active member
Active member


Joined: Oct 05, 2005
Posts: 116
Location: Raleigh NC
Status: Offline
Thank you Toan. Smile JL Raleigh NC
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Safetystick
PostPosted: Nov 28, 2005 - 06:25 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active member
Active member


Joined: May 13, 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Sussex, UK
Status: Offline
So providing we get past the AMRAAM barrage (hope DASS works) we should be able to lock up with an ASRAAM.

Well, that's comforting! Razz

Glad the only time this is likelly to happen is on exercise (I think the RAF can live with bruised pride!). Still, providing both aircraft can deal with the SU-30's and J-10's of the world I guess we should be happy!
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
toan
PostPosted: Nov 29, 2005 - 01:22 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite
Elite


Joined: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 535

Status: Offline
If RAF really wants to get more chance in BVR fighting with F/A-22, I think it should consider the development of something like Meteor BVRAAM with AESA + IIR dual seekers. With the help AWACS, datalink, and Pirate, it may have a more optimal effective range in engaging F/A-22 than Captor + Meteor or AIM-120...........

However, since USAF and RAF are as good friends as Harry Potter and Ron, it seems that this kind of development is meaningless for RAF up to now.........
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
TenguNoHi
PostPosted: Nov 29, 2005 - 01:48 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite
Elite


Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 922

Status: Offline
Quote:
However, since USAF and RAF are as good friends as Harry Potter and Ron, it seems that this kind of development is meaningless for RAF up to now.........


WTF is Ron?

-Aaron
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Velvet
PostPosted: Nov 29, 2005 - 02:40 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Frequent Poster
Frequent Poster


Joined: Nov 18, 2005
Posts: 61
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Status: Offline
Skinny guy with a pet Rat.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Shonuff
PostPosted: Nov 29, 2005 - 03:11 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Regular User
Regular User


Joined: May 10, 2005
Posts: 37

Status: Offline
isnt the US always improving upon its stealth technology?
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
toan
PostPosted: Nov 29, 2005 - 05:33 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite
Elite


Joined: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 535

Status: Offline
Shonuff wrote:
isnt the US always improving upon its stealth technology?


Yes, so even the F/A-22 is not the highest achievement of stealthy techonology for USA now..........

According to a report from Popular Science in 2003, the scientists and engineers of USA have started to persue the new standard of stealth: RCS = -70dB, or 0.0000001 m2 class.............

As for Europeans, according to a recent report from EADS this year, it hopes to achieve -30db / 0.001m2-class RCS in its new UAV/UCAV that won't enter service before 2025, and its ultimate goal for the stealth of future UAV/UCAV that is settled now is -40dB / 0.0001m2, which should mean that it will take the countries in Western Europe another 20~25 years at least to achieve roughly the same class of stealthy capability that USAF has achieved since the end of 1990s...........
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:     
Jump to:  
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Copyright © 2008 Lieven Dewitte and Stefaan Vanhastel