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Elite 2K Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 2815 Status: Offline

Oh yeah, and I forgot...cancel AB (like Blue Angel #5 on his sneak pass) just before you break Mach...then...CLIMB! With no lights, and no burner, and as fast as you would be going, it would be d@mn hard to ID the type of a/c. Very Happy

BTW, if one is really stupid enough to do this, I'd recommend flying to the Bahamas and staying there for awhile! Wink

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

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TC,

Not that I’ve ever had any knowledge of these types of ops, but I do have a few suggestions…

You’re gonna have to come from somewhere, so you’ve gotta find someplace that’s got a huffer and you can launch out of at night in a phantom and not be too much of a notice. Idea

I would personally pic the old Cecil NAS that’s southwest of Jax… Fly a heading of 094 out of Cecil for 9.5 miles till you are due south of Jax NAS and turn to 206 degrees towards 17FL. Stay below 250 kts initially so you don’t attract attention and start a slow climb towards Ocala which is about 60 nautical out… Stay below 18k so we don’t break the IFR regs… Remember if you are going to do something, minimize your exposure. Cool

I won’t discuss the Xpdr so I don’t upset the FAR folks… Big No No

Once you are a ways out you can push it up and start down hill and be around Mach 0.7 or so at 1 mile out. Go sector and roll thru there in full burner with 12 to 18 feet of burner plumes thundering the terra… Not Worthy

It will scare the living daylights outta all the liberals within 3 miles… Slap

Pitch up with the thunder still in their face, do one roll - always, deselect burner and get down on the deck and pick up a low altitude military route… You can easily coordinate with friends flying hornets, vipers, or eagles to try and mix in with other folks on the escape. Whistle

I’m not going to detail the escape route as that might actually look like I know what I’m doing, or something.

You will use approx 1,900 lbs of fuel just to get to within ½ mile of your destination. I used the flight planning program that Tom set up for Gen. Ritchie’s civi F-4 carrying two bags and departing with 16,600 lbs of fuel on board. Any whos, after the 1 mile in burner you’d still have around 13.5 on board to sneak off somewhere and land…

But of course this was all theoretical and for discussion purposes only… WTF

JR

Elite 2K Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 2815 Status: Offline

Oh yes, yes, of course! PURELY hypothetical! Wink

We'd NEVER think of actually doing something like this! Laughing

Yeah, I'd think I'd have to wait until the Seymour guys were pulling some night ops over the Atlantic in their Mudhens. Remember Gums's rule #4:

"Have another jet in the area to put the blame on." Laughing

But yeah, IF (once again, HYPOTHETICALLY) I were to try something this stupid, the place I where I would land would say, "Yah mon. Ju can park de airplane dere!"

...and then I change into a cheap Hawaii shirt, break out a bottle of rum, put on some Jimmy Buffett, eat my Cheeseburger in Paradise, and hang out for a few months. Wink

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

You guys are giving ATC too much credit. The only time we care about excess speed is when you are overtaking someone that you should be behind. Hell, this summer a civilian owned F-4 came into the overhead and the groundspeed on the radar had him at about 350 at a 3 mile initial. We all thought it would be cooler to see him come in even faster. F-18 pilots seem to have the biggest balls when it comes to carrying speed in the tower pattern. A month ago one asked for a low approach followed by an unrestricted climb to 10,000. He was at about 400 knots at a 2 mile final, and was descending and accelerating until he pulled it into a vertical climb midfield. Fun to watch.

If you're trying to avoid attention, keep it below 10,000' and not much faster than 200. There are lots of airplanes flying around without transponders. However, don't mess with the class B 30 nm mode C veil.

Elite 2K Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 2815 Status: Offline

ATC, we're going to start giving the kiddos around here some ideas! Laughing

It's not necessarily the controllers I would be worried about. It would be the FAA agents with arrest powers waiting for me at whatever ramp I taxied onto.

I always thought this would be a good idea to do to some other snobby pr#cks in Santa Monica, as jet sound is forbidden over the city. The same noise ordinance is in place in Orange County, CA.

"Sorry Goose. It's time to buzz the tower!" Cool

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Elite 3K Joined: May 10, 2004 Posts: 3098 Status: Offline

Quote:

But yeah, IF (once again, HYPOTHETICALLY) I were to try something this stupid, the place I where I would land would say, "Yah mon. Ju can park de airplane dere!"

...and then I change into a cheap Hawaii shirt, break out a bottle of rum, put on some Jimmy Buffett, eat my Cheeseburger in Paradise, and hang out for a few months.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

2

!!! TC, ya got it pegged bro LMAO

! Now go back into your Buffett collection, pull up Banana Wind, and put on track 2 - remember that we don't want a repeat of Jamaica Mistaica Shocked

! He was goin' down there for chicken in the Dancer (HU-16 Albatross) and was fired on with 50 cals because they mistook him for a drug runner! We don't need any more bullet holes in your F-4 Crazy Pilot

!!!

ATC,

Here is the actual reg for the rest of the crowd.

**************************
§ 91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34292, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91–219, 55 FR 34708, Aug. 24, 1990; Amdt. 91–227, 56 FR 65657, Dec. 17, 1991; Amdt. 91–233, 58 FR 43554, Aug. 17, 1993]
**************************

260 knots is our gear speed, you won’t find us at less than 350 kts until downwind to base. 350 is a stable speed with TO flaps.

I have actually been told by approach I was above 250 before, one dark night in a T-Bird coming back from New Orleans NAS. I just replied I was indicating 250… Cool

FAR's, ugh Exclamation

All you have to tell ATC (assuming you're working with them) if they bitch about your speed is something along the lines of 'unable to reduce speed, higher speed required for sefety' or something. As soon as you pull the safety card, they will not say much about it. Of course, if you are somewhere in the 250-300 knot range, you're better off saying that you're indicating 250. We controllers only see groundspeed, and most controllers don't know the first thing about F-16s, just that they're fast.
Also, controllers are taught that speed adjustments are the last resort way to separate aircraft - vertical separation and good vectoring is the answer.

TC wrote:

It's not necessarily the controllers I would be worried about. It would be the FAA agents with arrest powers waiting for me at whatever ramp I taxied onto.

No such thing. You can not be arrested for busting any regulation (ie, FAR's) The FAA has no such power. Worst they can do is fine you or suspend/revoke a certificate that they issued. Big difference between laws and regulations. Of course, there are no guarantees about what they may or may not threaten you with. Wink

Elite 2K Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 2815 Status: Offline

ATC wrote:

Of course, there are no guarantees about what they may or may not threaten you with. Wink

D@mn, I didn't know why I thought that the FAA had arrest powers. But yes, I still wouldn't want to have a "Come to Jesus Meeting" with those guys, no matter what their powers may entail. Laughing

So, who is the controlling authority regarding arrests for aviation-related crimes in the US? The FBI or US Marshals?

To Err is Human. To Forgive is NOT ACC Policy.

Elite 3K Joined: May 10, 2004 Posts: 3098 Status: Offline

Great question, TC Very Happy

!

OK, say for example that I had my own supersonic turbine toy. Say I "accidentally" boomed Las Vegas or that I decided to be a moron and see if I could fly below rooftop level down the length of the Strip (subsonic)... Who would come and arrest me? And what would be the specific charges?

Thanks in advance, ATC Very Happy

!!!

[Edit] Oh, and what would the charges be if I decided to fly down the length of the strip, below rooftop level (down in the "canyon") supersonic Shocked

???

OK, it has been my experience that many controllers have a personality similar to that of cops. They'd like to think they have more pull than they do, and most pilots have no idea exactly what controllers think about different things and what they can and can not do. Having said that, I should point out that I was a pilot long before I was a controller. While training to be a controller, I was never taught how to 'bust' a pilot for breaking regs. I suppose all I could do is call the FSDO, which I have never done. I have spoken to pilots very sternly for doing very stupid things, but only when they are being very dumb. I'm a little buzzed now as I just got home from putting away some Sam Adams with a couple guys from work. I'll try to write more about this in the morning.

TC wrote:

So, who is the controlling authority regarding arrests for aviation-related crimes in the US? The FBI or US Marshals?

Depends what you mean. The FAR's are not criminal offenses. They are rules (not laws) that the FAA wrote, so only the FAA can enforce them. If you flew at about 100' AGL down the vegas strip at mach2 or so, and broke a bunch of lights and windows, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there were criminal charges brought against you for breaking all that stuff in such a negligent manner, but there would not be more than a fine or pilot certificate action from the FAA for breaking the speed limit. Of course, you could also wind up with an Article 15 for something like that (I would think, I really don't have a clue how your commander would like it)

If you were to do say a 350 knot pass at 100 AGL down the strip, it would be very difficult to bring criminal charges against you, assuming you didn't break anything on the ground. Still, all the FAA could do is fine you or take certificate action.

Elite 2K Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 2815 Status: Offline

If you were military and did that, you would never fly again. As soon as you touched down, you would be placed under arrest, and you would soon face a less-than-honorable discharge from the service. One may also face some jail time for doing that.

This was yet one more goof in "Top Gun". Buzzing the tower will get you more than just a good chewing-out. Curiously, when they shot that scene, it stopped traffic on the main road going past the runway at Miramar. Some unaware off-duty personnel, and some officer's wives were making frantic phone calls thinking some pilot had gone berzerk and had just committed career suicide! Shocked

BTW, the pilot who flew that particular profile said something to the effect of "This will probably be the only shot I get at doing something like this, so I'm going to enjoy it, and make it look as good as possible!" Laughing

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Elite 3K Joined: May 10, 2004 Posts: 3098 Status: Offline

TC,

What I would've given to be the pilot for that scene Thumb

!!! Also, did anyone notice that he's going the wrong way? The traffic at Miramar goes from east to west down the runway every time I ever saw it, which is from left to right in that scene. I believe it's due to the large area of undeveloped land at the east end of the runway keeping the risk to civilians down.

I imagine that the military guys would be in criminal trouble under the UCMJ for failure to follow orders - after all, it is a standing order to comply with all FAA regulations when not doing specific "military" work, right?

ATC, ever see "Air America" with Mel Gibson and Robert Downey Jr.? Remember when Mr. Downey's character flies a bit low in the traffic chopper and gets his ticket pulled? He winds up getting a new license in Laos courtesy of the CIA... Something tells me that if I ever did something like buzz the Strip (subsonic, of course Wink

), I'd have to go and take the foreign country route without the CIA assistance.

Funny, I always thought that I'd be hauled off to the nearest Federal "extended-stay resort" in short order. Well, I guess a nasty fine and LOSING MY PILOT'S LICENSE Shocked

would be just about as bad Crying or Very sad

...

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