Forum: Air Power

Did the IAF use the IRST? And how capable do you think this passive detection thing is.
Also do you have any cockpit pics?
Thanks in advance. I had a dream to fly in USAF. Too bad i'm Canadian and i'll be driving a Leo instead. Sad

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Came out today on AOL news - some interesting observations!
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Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run
(from The Christian Science Monitor)
Foreign fighter jets performed well against F-16s in recent exercises.
By Scott Baldauf | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

NEW DELHI - Mingling over a few rounds of golf, dogfighting a bit over the jungles of West Bengal - this month's Cope India 2005 war games were billed as a standard two-week exercise between Indian and American top guns.

But in website chat rooms devoted to the arcania of fighter aircraft, there was a buzz. Arre, wa! Oh, wow! Had the Indian Air Force beat the Americans?

Not exactly, according to observers and participants. The exercises had mixed teams of Indian and American pilots on both sides, which means that both the Americans and the Indians won, and lost. Yet, observers say that in a surprising number of encounters - particularly between the American F-16s and the Indian Sukhoi-30 MKIs - the Indian pilots came out the winners.

"Since the cold war, there has been the general assumption that India is a third-world country with Soviet technology, and wherever the Soviet-supported equipment went, it didn't perform well," says Jasjit Singh, a retired air commodore and now director of the Center for Air Power Studies in New Delhi. "That myth has been blown out by the results" of these air exercises.

For now, US Air Force officials are saying only that the Cope India 2005 air exercises were a success, and a sign of America's growing appreciation for the abilities of its newfound regional ally.

But there are some signs that America's premier fighter jet, the F-16 Fighting Falcon, is losing ground to the growing sophistication of Russian-made fighter planes, and that the US should be more wary about presuming global air superiority - the linchpin of its military might.

"The Sukhoi is a ... better plane than the F-16," says Vinod Patney, a retired Indian Air Force marshal, and former vice chief of air staff. "But we're not talking about a single aircraft. We're talking about the overall infrastructure, the command and control systems, the radar on the ground and in the air, the technical crew on the ground, and how do you maximize that infrastructure. This is where the learning curve takes place.

"So let's forget about I beat you, you beat me," he adds. "This is not a game of squash."

F-16s 'got their clocks cleaned'
Tell that to the participants of [Link pending approval] (Guardian of India). On any given day, this website seems devoted to which Indian fighter plane uses which missile, with occasional grumblings about why Saurav Ganguly is still playing on the Indian cricket team. But during Cope India '05, Bharat Rakshak was a veritable cheering session for the underestimated Indian Air Force.

Typical was a posting by a blogger who called himself "Babui." Citing a quote from a US Air Force participant in Cope India '05 in Stars and Stripes - "We try to replicate how these aircraft perform in the air, and I think we're good at doing that in our Air Force, but what we can't replicate is what's going on in their minds. They've challenged our traditional way of thinking on how an adversary, from whichever country, would fight." - "Babui" wrote, "That quote is as good an admission that the F-16 jocks got their clocks cleaned."

Another blogger, Forgestone, advised against such "chest-thumping." "Coming out on the winning or losing side of a scorecard doesn't change their large technological edge, their resources, their experience, their talent, their geostrategic position," he wrote, referring to the US Air Force.

More recently, an American pilot who participated in the exercise, added his own two cents on the blog. "It makes me sick to see some of the posts on this website," wrote a purported US "Viper" pilot. "They made some mistakes and so did [Link pending approval] That's what happens and you learn from it."

The point of the exercise, he said, was for the USAF and the IAF to train, learn, and yes, play golf alongside each other. "For two weeks of training, both sides got more out of their training than they probably would in two months."

US fighter prowess slipping
Military experts say the joint exercises occurred at a time when America's fighter jet prowess is slipping. Since the US victories in the first Gulf War, a war dependent largely on air power, the Russians and French have improved the aviation electronics (avionics) and weapons capabilities of their Sukhoi and Mirage 2000 fighter aircraft. These improvements have given countries like India, which use the Sukhois and Mirages, a rough parity with US fighter planes like the F-16 and F-15C. China, too, now has 400 late-model Sukhois.

Yet, while the Indian Air Force designed the exercises to India's advantage - forcing pilots to fight "within visual range" rather than using America's highly advanced "beyond visual range" sensing equipment - both observers and participants admit that Indian aircraft and personnel performed much better than expected.

The Su-30 MKI "is an amazing jet that has a lot of maneuverability," Capt. Martin Mentch told an Air Force publication, AFPN. Maneuverability is key for missions of visual air combat.

If it turns out the US Air Force did, in fact, get their clocks cleaned, it will have been the second time. In Cope India 2004, an air combat exercise that took place near the Indian city of Gwalior, US F-15s were eliminated in multiple exercises against Indian late-model MiG-21 Fishbeds as fighter escorts and MiG-27 Floggers. In the 2005 exercises in Kalaikundi air base near Calcutta, Americans were most impressed by the MiG-21 Bisons and the Su-30 MKIs.

Indian training surprises US
Maj. Mark A. Snowden, the 3rd Wing's chief of air-to-air tactics and a participant in Cope India 2004, admitted that the US Air Force underestimated the Indians. "The outcome of the [2004] exercise boils down to [the fact that] they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected," he told Aviation Week last year. "They had done some training with the French that we knew about, but we did not expect them to be a very well-trained air force. That was silly."

One USAF controller working aboard an AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) plane told reporters at Kalaikundi Air Base that he was impressed by the speed in which Indian pilots responded to target assignments given them by AWACS. The AWACS, while operated by Americans, was acting as a neutral party, feeding target assignments to both Indian and American pilots during the exercise. In most cases, the Indians responded to target assignments faster than the American pilots did - a surprising fact, given that this was the first time Indian pilots had used the American AWACS capability.

Given India's growing economic and diplomatic aspirations, it's not surprising that many Indians would have the occasional outburst of jingoism. But Indian pilots know they still have a lot to learn.

"Whether the Indians win or lose is crew room gossip," says Mr. Patney. "The important thing is for us to be involved with the Americans; the purpose is to fly alongside each other, to learn from each other, to see if there is any interoperability. And for the Americans, the main thing is to see what we [Indians] can do with limited resources."

It looks to me like they based that article on talk in this site and the other forum mentioned. JL Raleigh NC

Could articles like this help for the, "We need more -22's." bid? I mean this they obviously got a biased opinion when they wrote that. Leave it to AOL to bone up yet another thing Smile

. There's no doubt the MKI is a good airplane, but they seem to be downright saying we suck. They are trying to say a small scale (well compared to an air war) exercise is exactly how everything would go in a real war. Why must journalists be so dumb all the time? The Indians had what 5 different airframes available and the US brought 1. I know its a multirole fighter, but it's not the best at everything. The MKI was designed as air superiority and air show material, right?

Anyway, moose were there any 1v1 engagements or were team tactics used extensively? How did the Indians work as a group? Do they have any particular air combat doctrine which they follow or something? Thank you for all this information moose.

Well that article just shows you you need to be objective to what you hear in the media. Back to topic.....lol hey moose or ragin! Did the Inidans use any Ground Control to supply both sides with target info or was it all done with AWACS?

Well thanks for the reply guys ... its just amazing that one can actually interact with real F-16 top guns who participated in the air exercises ... kudos to F-16.net Very Happy

This is the IAF's second exposure to the F-16's ... the first being the air exercises with Singapore in 2004. (with block 52's)

Here is some info on that ..

Quote:

...

"Our Sukhois are doing very well against the F-16Cs (of Singapore Air Force) in terms of manoeuvrability, sophistication of avionics and weapon systems. Similarly, our MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s are also matching up to the F-16s," say IAF sources.

..we are matching almost all our planes with F-16s of the Singapore Air Force, which are more advanced than the F-16s of Pakistan," said sources.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/896301.cms

^ A formation during the exercises >>
From front to rear:

- IAF Su-30K
- 2x RSAF F-16C/D (block 52 600 series)
- IAF MiG-21Bison
- IAF MiG-27ML & MiG-29
- IAF Su-30MKI (only for WVR as the IAF did not want to reveal the true abilities of the MKI and its Bars-i radar)

The 6 singapore F-16's also practised live bombing's at Pokhran.

Cheers,
Stealth Spy Very Happy

Last edited by Stealth_Spy on Nov 28, 2005 - 03:58 PM; edited 1 time in total

The most comprehensive resource on the Su-30 MKI . Click here

^^ Please read the entire thing ... the MKI combines the best and the latest of Russian, French, Israeli and Indian technologies and will give any aircraft (including EF, F-15, Rafale, etc)a run for its money
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Also, India has another air exercise coming up with Singapore ..

Quote:

IAF to hold joint exercises with Singapore Air Force
Chandigarh | November 25, 2005 6:31:54 PM IST

After the joint exercises with the United States Air Force, the Indian Air Force (IAF) will now hold similar exercises with the Singapore Air Force.
This was informed by Air Officer Commanding in Chief, Western Air Command Air Marshal A K Singh while he was talking to newspersons here today after inaugurating the Maintenance Conference of Western Air Command at the 12 Wing Air Base here.

Air Marshal Singh, said it would be the second time that a Singapore Air Force fleet would come to India for a joint exercise to increase its potential and strength, besides gaining exposure and experience.

He said the IAF men had already gained exposure in France, South Africa and Singapore, and Alaska.

Read the full article >> Click here

Really like the Mig29 photo with all the people on it.

I can't take a photo like that here....., all the flightline pukes would b!tch about it. Laughing

^^ hey that's an Su-30K >> http://attach.high-g.net/attachments/su ... on-pic.jpg

Stealth_Spy wrote:

... the MKI combines the best and the latest of Russian, French, Israeli and Indian technologies and will give any aircraft a run for its money

Any legacy aircraft.... a run for it's money. Laughing

The posts of moose and ragins and the photos they posted have been [Link pending approval]

Whats going on Sad

My guess is it has something to do with Asif asking them to PM him, and the article posted by AOL news. Im sure a liability came up some how and created some problems. I said in the place holder post, sites like this have some inherent dangers when it comes to an open forum like this.

-Aaron

Did anybody save a copy, like cut and paste it into a word doc? Not trying to get anyone in trouble, but would like to look at the reply's again if I could. If this is a no no, then disregard the above.

Hi guys,

Indeed some people asked us to remove their posts from this thread. Sorry for any confusion this might have created.

Stefaan

Forum Veteran Joined: Apr 16, 2005 - 03:16 PM Posts: 800

Correct me if I'm wrong but those F-16s were not CCIPs, had no APG-68 V(9), MIDS, AIM-9X, HMCS, probably could not use AMRAAMs, etc..

Why TF would all these systems have been developped if the viper could beat the crap out of anything without??