Sukhoi 30MKI versus F-15 and F-16

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?

Su30 MKI v F-15 and F-16

Sukhoi 30 MKI
32
40%
F-15
31
39%
F-16
17
21%
 
Total votes : 80

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by IndianAirForce » 04 Aug 2005, 17:07

How do you think the MKI would do against the F-15 and F-16. The F-15 is a marvelous aircraft and is still one of the best in the world along with the F-16. How do you think the MKI with it's supermanuverbility(supposedly) and thrust vectoring would do against a F-15 and F-16.

Imagine this scenario: It's one on one. The Su 30 MKI v. F-15 both without weapons and AWACS( just a plain old dogfight) over a desert during a training exercise. How would the dogfight play out?


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by ACSheva » 05 Aug 2005, 00:37

Good quistion IndianAF. The Su30MKI is a very good Russian fighter in probably all of the ways that a combat jet is judged by. That is why youre Air Force bought it. Escpecially if you have a very skilled pilot flying the machine. Which the Indian Air Force certainly has many of. So I believe that the 30MKI should come out the winner in the dogfight. But a pilots skill is crucial.

Its very interesting because over the weekend I attended the McChord air expo, and I had the chance to talk with a Hornet driver. Who is a CO of VFA125 RoughRiders, with over 3000 hours in the F18. So we talked about a variety of issues ranging from the case of Scott Speicher(whom he personally had flown with), and of course about the new Russian aircraft.

He said that he would "not want to face a Su27-etc in a war time scenario" especially the SMK,KI, etc block. In his view the Su27-etc block) is a very lethal jet, which is to not be taken lightly in any way. I remember him saying that its "better than most guys on the street think".

But that is a Hornet pilot, as far as a USAF pilot would look at it I dont know. I did not have the cahnce to chat with any 16-15 drivers. Some guys here might have.

Shev


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by agilefalcon16 » 06 Aug 2005, 15:19

I don't believe it's fair to compare a jet that uses thrust-vectoring nozzels against jets that don't have them. Of anything, I believe it would be better to compare the Su-30MKI/35/37 against the F-15 ACTIVE or the F-16 MATV when talking about maneuverability. From what I've heard, both the Su-30MKI and the F-16 MATV are capable of flying at 180 degrees AoA for a brief amout of time and still recover, though I believe that the MATV Viper can hold 180 degrees longer as the MKI can't even hold 120 degrees for 4 seconds (So what I've heard). However, I have also been told that thrust-vectoring is almost useless in actual combat as it is almost never needed and causes severe stress to the aircraft's airframe. Besides, there are missiles available now, like the AIM-9X, that can lock a target as much as 90 degrees off it's bore sight and has more than a 99% chance of blowing ANY aircraft out of the sky. I would also like to share a link that explains why AoA is pointless above 60 degrees in combat:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread13214/pg1

To answer your question IndianAirForce, yes the Su-30MKI can probably easily outmaneuver an F-16C/E or an F-15C/E in close range, however if there is a skilled enough pilot in the cockpit of the Eagle or Viper, then I guess anything can be possible. As far as BVR is concerned though, I believe it may be just between the MKI and the Eagle, as the Viper doesn't have a big enough radar, at least the F-16C doesn't...

I might be wrong on some of this, but it's just my :2c: worth.


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by IndianAirForce » 07 Aug 2005, 21:37

Although unlikley that it will be needed(due to BVR and AWACS), whenvever thrust vectoring is needed it will come as the winner. And even if it is almost useless, it is better than nothing.


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by IndianAirForce » 07 Aug 2005, 21:38

Although unlikley that it will be needed(due to BVR and AWACS), whenvever thrust vectoring is needed it will come as the winner. And even if it is almost useless, it is better than nothing.


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by avon1944 » 14 Aug 2005, 23:56

IndianAirForce wrote:How do you think the MKI would do against the F-15 and F-16


My money would be on the American fighters due to the Slammer being head and shoulders above anything else. The Russian Air Force is really dis-appointed at the performance of the AA-12 Adder. There is a reason the Russian are still producing the AA-10 Alamo! It is their equivalent to the Sparrow Missile.

As for the performance of the Su-27 & family, it is absolutely fabulous at low speeds and altitude. The cobra/hook can not be doen at speeds above 450mph (720KmHr). At speeds above 450 mph the deceleration generates 12+ G's! The Russian Air Force are fans of the low speed dogfight and the furball for that is when the quantity advantage comes into play.
So should the USAF aircraft stay away from the low speed dogfight. Approach the merge at high subsonic numbers and dis-arm the Su-27 and family members. The dogfight in the trans-sonic speed region, is where the extra bucks for the F-15 shows, which is why my choice among the three was the F-15. The F-16 and F/A-18 were designed from what was found out during and after the viet Namese War, The "Ault Report" and the "Red Baron Report." The performance range of altitudes between 15,000 feet to 30,000 feet and speeds of 250mph to 450 mph, this is where 80% of the world's dogfights have takened place.

As for COPE INDIA, it was just what the USAF needed to get Congress to vote for funds for the F-22 program! A year or two ago, two days before Congress was to vote on the funds for the F-22, information was leaked to an Israeli news paper that in 240 engagments the USAF lost 220 of them. We won't get into the ROE's but, the Israeli's used there HMDS/Python 4 and Slammer (simulated) also. Against that the USAF aircraft had the Sidewinder-9M and Slammer. Visual ID was required before taking a shot! This insured the Python4/HMDS would be a major factor.

I stand by my choice of the F-15C and F-16C due to the explaination of what really happened printed in Aviation Week & Space Technology. I also stand by the reality that these are USAF "hoops" that the service uses to get Congress to jump through!!
The exercise COPE INDIA took place in the third week of February. First press reports surfaced in mid-March. The AW&ST article did not appear until October 04, 2004! Didn't Congress vote for F-22 funds in the summer time? "Awh shucks" the vote was over by the time the truth came out! The Indian AF nor the USAF was talking about the exercise any more by then. Does this sound like a real military exercise or, a public relations campaign!! Read the atricle at;
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1237790/posts

agilefalcon16, thanx for the URL to "Above Top Secret."

Adrian


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by cru » 15 Aug 2005, 10:58

The cobra/hook can not be doen at speeds above 450mph (720KmHr).

A, you are wrong! These (useless) maneuvres could not be performed above 450 km/h


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by ACSheva » 15 Aug 2005, 20:16

Guys you are funny. You cant compare the 15C-16C to the 30MK. Its not even fair. The 30MK is a better jet. I get the feeling like some people are going to be comparing the 16 to any fighter for the next 100 years.

I stand by my choice of the F-15C and F-16C due to the explaination of what really happened printed in Aviation Week & Space Technology.


Well I saw an article by the same mag which said that the 30MK beat the 15C " every time".

In terms of ground strike capabilities, the Su-30MKI outperforms the F-16C Block 52 by 50 percent and the F-16C Block 60 by 100 percent owing to its better surveillance and fire control radar system, higher survivability, better maneuverability, heavier combat load and longer flight range. The F-18E/F, following its modernization which has increased its flight range, armament suite and ammunition load and upgraded its surveillance and fire control radar system, still lags behind the Su-30MKI in strike capability by 15 to 20 percent.


Notably, in terms of quantity and types of weapons, the Russian fighter considerably outclasses the F-16C Block 50 and F-16C Block 60 aircraft. Only the F-18E/F is close to the Su-30MKI in this respect.


Engines with thrust-vectoring nozzles enable the Su-30MKI to perform such maneuvers as «cobra» vertical reverse, roll in «bell» turn in «cobra» etc. In these maneuvers, an angle of attack can reach 190o. These are not purely aerobatic maneuvers: this supermaneuverability can be effectively used in combat. As for the F-16 and F-18 aircraft, their maximum angles of attack are 30o and 40o, respectively, and they cannot use armament at supercritical angles of attack.


I'ts funnny how we always make up excuses for every time someone humbles us. If the F 16 is so much better, than the Indians will take our current offer of us selling them the new F16-F18s. If not, than we should know why.

Shev


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by Biggen » 16 Aug 2005, 04:37

If the F 16 is so much better, than the Indians will take our current offer of us selling them the new F16-F18s. If not, than we should know why.


Ok, then. Why?


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by ottleymonkey » 16 Aug 2005, 09:45

Until a real battle ensued between these jets, I'd give my vote to F-15. BTW, You have to admire how the Russian can some how keep up, especially with so little money for R&D. Not everything has to be gold platted but most of the time you get what you paid for in the end.


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by EriktheF16462 » 16 Aug 2005, 13:26

Cobra=0 energy, the Viper or Eagle will take the fight vertical, you can't employ on what you can't get your nugget on. The Cobra sells fighters to politicians, the Slammer, HMCS, Eagle and Xs shoot them down. What was the combat record of the SU you love so much ACSheva and why don't you go start a site for it?
F16 462 AD USAF. Crew dog for 3 and Even a pointy head for a few months.


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by ACSheva » 17 Aug 2005, 00:11

Yes I do like the Su, just like I admire other planes. Dont you? :D

Its just that some folk try to judge the new Su's only by their "cobra" manuever. Because thats all they ever hear, or because they have usually nothing else to say. Or its pure jealousy, so they start making up excuses for it. When the jet is so much more. On almost every single aspect of a fighter jets performance as I have described in my previous post.

Eric can you help me start a site? I would greatly appreciate it. :lol:


Shev


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by Biggen » 18 Aug 2005, 04:05

But Su-30MKI has a little advantage in case of maneuvres.


On almost every single aspect of a fighter jets performance as I have described in my previous post.


What's the g limit on an SU-30?


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by Fighting-Falcon » 18 Aug 2005, 04:55

What's the g limit on an SU-30?


The g-limit of the Su-30 is 9g's


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by ACSheva » 18 Aug 2005, 05:26

Su 30MK has a 9.5 g limit, identical to the F15-16 I believe. Which is actually allot, considering that the pilot really cant withstand anything more anyway. So the G difference is not a factor, if you wish to make it so.


Shev


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