Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

Last edited by Wolvenom on Aug 22, 2005 - 07:45 PM; edited 1 time in total

dionis wrote:

I will post some data just for the sake of ending this argument

[Link pending approval]

Claims the range of the APG-70 "exceeds 100 miles" (160KM to 2180KM then) (best F-15 radar in service NOW)

[Link pending approval]

This site shows that the N011M radar on the Su-30MKI can tracks targets at a similar range as the APG-70 , and search for targets at like AWACS at 400KM away.

[Link pending approval]

The Zhuk MSF can tracks targets at ranges upto 190KM and searches for targets at 245KM!

But here's your problem, we're not talking about the APG-70, we're talking about the AN/APG-63 (v)3 AESA radar! Where have you been?

You're trying to compare an AESA radar versus a PESA radar, this is a joke. AESA radar's have the advantage in many areas: range, processing speed being able to use multiple radar modes concurrently, it is able to overlay GMTI, SAR, and air to air modes, and focus its air to air search in a narrow area, so that it can track small, slow moving, low flying targets.

F-16.net Sponsor

Note that the Powerpoint is USAF made! Not sure if they'll post the EXACT truth there...

Trusting a US source is much worse than providing a neutral source like I have Smile

I am dense for sure! Because I trust FACTs. What is the APG-63 (V) 3 ?

I don't even see that on Raytheon's site.

How bout the APG-63 (V) 2?

Give me a LINK with RANGE for that radar, not something someone told you or something you read somewhere. That's a little hard to believe. I'm not going to look for evidence for you Smile

And you should know the BARS can track HOVERING targets, not just "low flying" ones.

Forum data is of no concern here, I could find the same data somewhere else but the NIIP radar is of concern here, not the NIIR one.

dionis wrote:

What is the APG-63 (V) 3?

I don't even see that on Raytheon's site??? Are you in a Wolvenomland or what?

How bout the APG-63 (V) 2?

Give me a LINK with RANGE for that radar, not something someone told you or something you read somewhere. That's a little hard to believe. I'm not going to look for evidence for you Smile

[url][Link pending approval]+Aerospace+2004+-+Singapore+to+be+offered+[Link pending approval][/url]

Oh wow, no data whatsoever. Sad

I was hoping to see numbers.

I might as well find articles about the PAK-FA's new radar..

I also saw you claim earlier that the AIM-9X is better than Russian WVR missiles, again, no data, but hey, it's Wolvenom Smile

Atleast I gave you realistic numbers, not rubbish advertisement.

Just looking through the US Powerpoint makes me laugh, I mean, they must have been fighting against the LATEST Russian ECM systems right? Or French, or whoever else makes decent ECM.

Not the Mig-29A's that they shotdown ECM systems (oh wait, did they HAVE ECM? No.)

If that data was even vs Soviet Flanker Bs, I'd give it credit Smile

.. Forget Su-35BMs (future Su-27SK upgrades for the RuAF due to the Mig-29SMT program being rejected for now)

Wolfy, you cant compare a 30MK with an F 15. Its simly not fair on almost all deciding factors. The F 15 is past its prime.

Shev

I'd also like to mention the fact that NIIP is done with developing the Irbis AESA Radar which is an improvement over the already insanely powerful N011M.

dionis wrote:

You are talking AA-10As, not the AA-10C/D variants first of all, which were massive improvements over the previous models.

One reason the Russians continue to use the Adder is because of the disillutionment of the AA-12 Alamo! When the Slammer came out the US Military could switch over from the Sparrow Missile soon enough.

Quote:

the R-77 (which isn't even what anyone wants anymore) so you should compare it to the R-77M and the R-77PD (or something, the Ramjet version).

The ramjet version of the R-77 had its production terminated late last year.

Quote:

Trusting a US source is much worse than providing a neutral source like I have

Remember, when Russia wanted the world to know about the MiG.-29 and the Su-27, they did not have the technical editor of ITAR-TASS or any Russian periodical, they requested Aviation Week and Space Technology! What does that tell you about how the Russian Military about the accuracy of this magazine!

ACSheva wrote:

you can't compare a 30MK with an F 15. Its simly not fair on almost all deciding factors. The F 15 is past its prime.

Why not? The F-15C is America's number one aerial combat machine against the the number one Russian export machine.

The new radar, the HMDS, Sidewinder-9X and, the Slammer Missile make the F-15C+ a match for any Russian fighter.

Adrian

dionis wrote:

But really, think about it, when has an AMRAAM shot a non-downgraded, modern fighter?

I'll answer your question after you answer this one first: When was the last time that those vaunted Russian missiles shot down anything in a real combat environment?

Interesting that you attempt to discredit and downplay one system, a US system, while not giving proper credit on what those vaunted Russians systems have done lately....no?

seeker

Seeker, good quistion. And I agree with it.

But the oponents which we were going against in previous conflicts came against us with really old Migs, or with the basic, cheap models. Wouldnt you agree? And so that makes you a badass, just cause you bagged some old Mig? No, it doesnt. Now when you take this Su 30MK, etc with a good pilot, he just might humble you. Especially if you get into a WVR style scenario. Which in my opinion would be catastrophic for an F 15.

Shev

dionis and Wolvenom,

Your urinary joust, while entertaining, is simply a waste of time. Dionis insists on very detailed data, all of which is classified by the USAF and will never be posted in public. Therefore, he will never be satisfied.

There is certainly public data available that gives some clue as to the capabilities of US systems but it is always downplayed, because the US doesn't want the rest of the world to know what we're capable of. That's the reason we don't show all of our cards in exercises like Cope India, or any other international exercise, for that matter.

On the other hand, you have Russian companies that are willing to publish plenty of data on their systems. All of it, of course, is inflated to attract a buyer...

Hence, you have vague statements about the APG-70 range and fairly specific info on the phazotron in the links dionis posted. However, there is very little information out there about the APG-63V2 (even less on the V3). But, the V2 is twice the radar of the APG-70 and makes the F-15 probably five times more effective with the V2 versus the 70. The V3 is even better.

Oh, and if you want a link to prove it, try this: www.biggensaysso.com

Regarding the amraam data in the Col Leggett's brief, those aren't combat missile expenditure numbers, they are the numbers of aim-120s fired at Tyndall AFB, during WSEP testing.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... archer.htm

Quote:

Just looking through the US Powerpoint makes me laugh, I mean, they must have been fighting against the LATEST Russian ECM systems right? Or French, or whoever else makes decent ECM.

Were they tested against "the LATEST Russian ECM systems"? Of course, that would be classified also, but if I were a bettin' man...

Of course, all the latest Russian stuff has been test against the latest USAF ECM, right?

Quote:

The F 15 is past its prime.

Only when compared to the F-22.

Biggen you ramble on about things with no evidence. So listening to you tell me about radar efficiency.. is like listening to me tell you about ballet. It won't work. Sorry. When you can show me something to work with, I will agree with you. Telling us about the "very secretive" USAF won't get you anywhere. I can backfire with some irrelavent remark like "Well the Russian radars in the RuAF are more powerful than the public knows too" or something of that sort.

What's funny is, how Bush was wetting himself and calling the Kremlin when some 2nd-rate Russian ECM was jamming the US GPS in Iraq.. Oh my.

Quote:

the R-77 (which isn't even what anyone wants anymore) so you should compare it to the R-77M and the R-77PD (or something, the Ramjet version).

The ramjet version of the R-77 had its production terminated late last year.

Interesting, I'd like to see a link for this?

Quote:

cru wrote:

A, you are wrong! These (useless) maneuvres could not be performed above 450 km/h

NOOOoooo! 450mph (720KmHr) is correct as the "maximum" speed. At 280mph (450KmHr) and a minimum exit speed around 135mph says there is little utility.

When the F-15C's from Langley AFB, Va. flew in formation with Su-27's over the Atlantic Ocean their air speed was close to 400mph when the Su-27's pulled cobras and got on the tails of the F-15's and "parked there." There is nothing the F-15's could do to shake the Su-27's.

Test Pilot for Sukhoi Viktor Pugachev said to AW&ST shortly after he performed the maneuver for the first time at the Paris Air Show that, the cobra is a very good way to loose 200kts or more in just a few seconds. If the exist speed is around 135kts, the loss of 200kts means the entry speed was around 335kts.

At speeds up to 450mph equates to being able to fight a normal dogfight in a furball, put on the breaks and have the aircraft behind you wind up in front of you.

By the way Mikhail Simonov Chief Designer for the Su-27 Program said the Su-27 can do the cobra with a weapons load of 7,000Kg (15,435 lbs)!
The rate of 280mph (450Km/h) is the show speed entry because at 1,000 feet altitude it is the best point of controllability but, not the "maximum" entry speed!

Sorry A.!

No way under 450 km/h Laughing

Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

Sukhoi 30MKI versus F-15 and F-16