Thirty new F-16 block 52+ aircraft for Greece

NewsBot · by **NewsBot** » 19 Jul 2005, 20:00

This is a discussion topic for the F-16.net news article: "<a href="news_article1414.html" target="_top">Thirty new F-16 block 52+ aircraft for Greece</A>". You can read the <a href="index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3572.html" target="_top">full forum discussion</A> in the F-16.net forum.

**nzenthusiast** · by **nzenthusiast** » 19 Jul 2005, 23:04

I reckon the Greek government has not made a smart decision to go for the F-16. It seems that the only reason to validate them going for the F-16 instead of the Eurofighter is price.

A Eurofighter Typhoon from tranche three would outclass a F-16 by miles according to my knowledge. It is suposedly going to get 3D thrust vectoring and it has supercruise (mach1.2). It is also a two engined fighter which offers the performance benefits.

Once again if it is not financial reasons that they are going for the F-16, the Greek government isn't that bright. In my opinion, the former socialist government which are generally aginst military spending made a better decision.

I know this is an F-16 site and all but I personally still think the Eurofighter is better.

Fantasma337 · by **Fantasma337** » 19 Jul 2005, 23:47

Its an attrition replacement order essentially... It does not harm the Typhoons chances at all...

nballian · by **nballian** » 21 Jul 2005, 03:00

I reckon the Greek government has not made a smart decision to go for the F-16

Greece can only afford 1 new multirole fighter. Eurofighter is better than F-16, no doubt.
This new F-16 order will help maintain balance with the other side until the time comes to chose between Eurofighter/F35/other aircraft.
Which is the best one to have, Eurofighter or F35?
Which side will make a better offer when the time comes, the Europeans or the Americans?
I don't know the answers, but the other side (Turkey) has chosen the F35.

Happy_Gilmore · by **Happy_Gilmore** » 21 Jul 2005, 03:20

I reckon the Greek government has not made a smart decision to go for the F-16. It seems that the only reason to validate them going for the F-16 instead of the Eurofighter is price.

You don't give the Hellenic AF much credit do you? They are obviously very please with the block 52+ aircraft they got last year.

duplex · by **duplex** » 22 Jul 2005, 06:36

The Hellenic Air Force is flying both Mirage 2000 's and F-16's and they decided to continue with F-16 after 2009. Can we see this as a final confirmation that F-16 is definitely a better and more preferred fighter aircraft than the M-2000?

F16VIPER · by **F16VIPER** » 22 Jul 2005, 06:56

I do not know, but all I can say is that as usual there are many factors involved including things such as politics and price. Greece is already upgrading its M2000s to Mk5 standard I believe and they are pretty good planes too. Greece is probably trying to buy from different sources just in case the US closes the tap at some point. The M2000 is not a cheap plane so it is not alaways possible to buy it in big quantities. I can see the same theoretical exercise happening in South America where Chile will very soon accept its first F-16 block 50 Plus and this will probably force Peru to further upgrade its M.200Ps it has operated for the past 20 years to Mk5 standard.

nballian · by **nballian** » 22 Jul 2005, 23:00

I agree, politics and price were major determinants for buying the M2K. It can also carry weapons the F-16 can't such as Exocet, MICA, SCALP. In addition, there have been delays and hardware/software problems after both the initial M2K order and the M2K-5 order 5 years ago. Still I think the M2K equiped with MICA is at least as good as F-16+AMRAAM.

wohlstad · by **wohlstad** » 23 Jul 2005, 02:20

The Greeks are not buying the F-16 just for A2A, but for multi-role. At 52K Lb max take-off the F-16 52+ trounces the M2K with its puny 38,500 Lb. Add conformal tanks and much more developed A2G weapons package and you would wonder who in the right mind would even bother with the M2K with its weak engine.

The only reason why M2K is still in business is to provide the alternative to the Americans. Basically, if you buy the Viper, you are pretty much going to declare yourself as "friend and ally of the American people" with all the rights and obligations. Arms sales are just as much about politics as money.

nearhos · by **nearhos** » 23 Jul 2005, 22:24

In the medium-term HAF must replace 22 F-4Es and about 90 A-7 E/Hs which are becoming obsolete.The desicion about the new F-16s was made because at this time there was no alternative.The deficit is higher than 6%,Typhoon is expensive for the moment,Mirage 2000-5 faces problems realated to ICMS Mk3 which are to be solved within the next 10 months and Turkey will not have its F-35s earlier than 2015. Despite current problems connected with the delivery of M-2000-5s and the upgrade of another 10 2000s to 2000-5,these planes are extremely important to HAF due to their ability to carry weapons such as MICA, AM-39 and especially SCALP.(Note that U.S. have denied up to now to sell to Greece weapons of the SCALP category). As for the future,i think Typhoon will definitely be the choice.For both operational and political reasons.

ping · by **ping** » 25 Jul 2005, 00:53

Greece with new 40 F-16 blk 52+ have now: 120 F-16 blk 52+, 70 F-16 blk 30-50, 50 mirage 2000-5 and 35 F-4E Phantom upgraded. This is a very good aircraft number from Greece

nearhos · by **nearhos** » 25 Jul 2005, 14:34

ping wrote:Greece with new 40 f16blk52+ have now 120 f16 blk 52+, 70 f16 blk 30-50, 50 mirage 2000-5 and 35 F-4Ephantom upgraded.Is a very good aircraft number from greece

Blk 52+s will be 100, blk30/50s 72, M-2000-5s 25, M-2000EGM/BGMs 23 and F-4Es AUP 34.(Of course without counting any future losses).

nikos · by **nikos** » 25 Jul 2005, 18:40

A serious mistake.

I don't think that it was a smart strategic move. It was only a result of USA political pressure. I think Greece should pursue quality buys at any cost (that Turkey cannot afford) and will give a strategic advantage. Su-37 should be a smart move at this time, with 40 aircraft immediate buy and 40 as future option with a factory built in Greece to produce them. EAB (HAI) is not an option because it is partially controlled by Lockheed. But the decision of buying F-16s is only that a Nea Dimokratia US-friendly Government would decide anyway. A more conservative purchase would be 40 Mirage-2000-5MK2 with the option of upgrading the rest EGM/BGM to this standard.

Of course it was a result of political pressure as well,but it was the only choise possible .As for the russian aircrafts,are they better than Typhoon,F-35 or Rafale?(HAF does not want them for air shows...).Even if we find one that it is,you forget the S-300 "adventure" of HAF (imposed by politics) and the russian-originated weapons.There are many reasons that make Mig or the Sukhoi alternative wishfull thinking.Finally,how could they order M-2000-5 while there are issues to be solved related to ICMS Mk3 system? The upgrade of the rest EGM/BGMs in the future will be done, but let Thales first deliver what it has to deliver...

F16VIPER · by **F16VIPER** » 26 Jul 2005, 00:03

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the issue with the ICMS Mk3 system, is that the only problem with those planes

nearhos · by **nearhos** » 26 Jul 2005, 01:58

There was an evaluation of the first a/c last summer which was proved unsuccessfull.According to HAF there were major problems connected to ICMS Mk3 which would affect the aircraft's and/or the personnel's safety.Moreover it would compromise the success of the missions. Since last February there are 12 new M-2000-5s and another 5 upgrated 2000s awaiting for the solution.According to Dassault officials the delay is Thales' culpability.