Forum: Future F-16 crew

Hey all,

I'm applying to the Air Force academy, and recently heard about a Chaplain there who was fired for "Blowing the Whistle".

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if it's not as bad as the media makes it out to be, but as an Athiest, I don't want my lack of religion to get in the way of my education. I don't go out of my way to try and deconvert people, or insult other people's religious preferences, and I expect to have that same attitude returned. Unfortunatly, usually it's something not so pleasant Razz

With 4th Class Cadets having to deal with enough as it is, if I go to the Academy, I don't want to deal with Religious hazing in addition to everything else. I'll be up there in a couple weeks for a five-day engineering camp, but from what I understand, we'll have fairly limited contact with the Cadets. I could be wrong, but I'll see when I get there. What I want to know is... (Preferably from someone who's there now)

Do Evangelical Christians really have such a tight grip on the Academy?

And from Any Active Duty/Reserve guys, Does the rest of the USAF share this attitude?

And finally, would possibly simply having 'Athiest' or 'No Rel Pref' as my Religion have any possibility of holding back my career?

If any of the above are true, what could I do about it? 1st Amendment rights aren't taken very seriously anymore.

Thanks to anyone who answers... I realize the media has probably blown it out of proportion, but I'd prefer that my education and hopefully future career are not at risk due to simply not believing in a god of some sort. I simply wish to serve my country.

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Dammerung - Listen carefully, according to science as well as scripture, and Mr. Enstien, "Matter cannot be Created, nor Destroyed", you may consider yourself to be an "Atheist", however, religous practice does not have anything to do with faith in God. Deep down inside, you are alittle confused. Wake Up!!

Do you really think, there is no creator? Do you think God did not give man free will to do as he wishes? And finally, do you mean to say that Religion is non-sense, or that there is no God? Don't you believe that it is religion that is the basis for all war? Believe it or not you and I were once chosen to fight against the cause of religion in the belief of freedom of choice? This is true faith, believing that Christ has died for the forgiveness of sin, and that whether or not you have chosen to be an Athiest, Christian, Jew, Mormon, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, etc, does not have anything to do with belief?

Did you know, once I was a Catholic and was thrown out of the Cathoilic Church because of my belief in 2nd Thessolians Chapter 2, something that has happened to me? Your faith will not and should not have any bearing on your success at the Academy. Be very careful, if it is demanded of you, that you must go to church at USAFA, then perhaps it's time to become a Naval Officer. I don't think they care.

I am a believer, who has no religion. Now, do some research.

I know some stuff going on just has to do with people just mentioning God or religion. Right before graduation this year I believe it was the cadet wing commander who sent an email with a Biblical reference and they launched an investigation into whether it was appropriate. Personally, I believe it was a waste of time and effort to do so. If someone just mentions God/faith/or religion, it doesn't mean they're trying to convert you, they're just saying it. Some people take just the mention of faith as an all out conversion attempt. I think some people just need to grow up, get over it, and realize the world isn't going to be the way they want it to be. Deal with it.

In saying all of this, I don't think people should be unfairly treated for their religious beliefs or lack thereof. The Academy is addressing concerns with this right now with religious tolerance seminars. I attended one when I was at appointee orientation this past April and to tell the truth, it was absolutely pointless, but they need to do this to get those people in the minority who think the world has to be their way and the media off the Academy's back.

I agree Delta, I was just trying to give some encouragement and enlightenment, it is a moot point, having studied this topic in my first course towards my degree in "The Philosophy of Aviation and Space" it opened up a few ideas - never taking taking away my belief in a strong and good military for our Nation.

Take some friendly advice. Do you want to have a happy AFA experience or are you interested in "being" atheist, because honestly if you make a "deal" out of it, it will bite you. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying its the way it is. Its like being homosexual in the military. Sure they are there, sure they do a fine job, but the the choice has to be made....whether you agree with it or not, about what's more important to you, and where and how you choose to fight your battles. The folks who decide that they must be recognized as gay don't get to be in the military anymore. Obviously there are no such regs about athieism, but how effective are you going to be being known as "Lt. Dammerung......you know, that athiest guy". Being defined that way can't be good in a systen where the opinion of other officers is taken into account on ERs (do they still call them that?)

I understand your desire....and right to merely serve without being forced to adopt some belief system that you don't hold with, but I think that you will find that most of your career in the military will be spent adapting your beliefs and just doing what it takes to get the job done. The military doesn't spend a lot of time trying to be all things to all people. Its about comformity. If you want to be a free spirit, work for Apple or the New York Times. If it were me, I'd put "No pref" or "Non-denominational", go to chapel when they tell you to, and move on. You think they won't single out that "Athiest" doolie because it isn't fair? If you don't believe in a higher power, then certainly sitting there watching a bunch of people who do isn't going to harm you.

I'd feel differently if you were another religion and were forced to sit thru chapel that didn't recognize your religion.....and I'm not bagging on athiests like they have fewer rights, its just that since you don't believe anyway, I don't think its worth the hassle for something you don't believe in as opposed to something that you do....unless you are saying that you believe in not believing. I hope I'm saying that right, and it makes sense.

FWIW, I'm sorry that you have to concern your self with this in addition to everything else that you are preparing for.

Well, I'm glad it's not like that in Norway !
When I was in the military in the mid 1990's over 90% of the people in my unit was not religious, how many belived in a god I do not know.
As for myselfe I do not belive that there is a god, no entity that creatred everything. I do not belive in heaven and I do not belive in life after death, we come from nothing and go back to nothing. I respect people who belive in god and if they don't respect me back.... well so be it. Rolling Eyes

When I was in basic, there was a guy two beds down who wasn't an athiest- he was an open satanist (can't remember the official name). He didn't make it widely known, and he didn't put down christains or buddists or anyone; he was actually a really good guy, but he had is beliefs and he stuck with them. It seems you are the same way, and no, you won't be officially held up because of your views. I can't speak for the AFA, but at least in basic we all went to 'church' because if we were there, we weren't back in the dorm doing BS menial work (that particular guy went to the 'wiccan' church, since it was closest to what he believed- again, he could swallow that and play the game for the time being). My dog tags read "pretestant: non-denominational"; I have my views, but am not a practicing member of any one religion. You can in all likelyhood file "no preference" and nobody will make a note of it.

Overall, I agree with Scott- if they make you go to church, then play the game. If they try to make you do something 100% against your beliefs, like pledge subserviance to God or something, don't. You may have to explain yourself, and they may frown on it, but they can't do anything at all to you because of it. If they do, you have a voice through the inspector general that can go all the way to the four-stars in the pentagon if need be. Best of luck Smile

I have issues with anyone that bashes another for thier beliefs.

Quote:

Deep down inside, you are alittle confused. Wake Up!!

America is one of the greatest countries on the planet, this point being discussed is a perfect example of why. Should anyone try and push thier beliefs on you while you are at work, and your not ok with it. It has the same magnitude of trouble as sexual harrasment does.

allenperos, I'd prefer if YOU Didn't try and get me to be religious, or have some sort of belief, monothiestic, polythiestic, whatever, either. That attitude is exactly what I don't wish to deal with. I honestly don't care how the universe came to be -- it's not my concern, and we'll never figure it out in my lifetime. For you to assume that I know nothing about religion, is rather rude to say the least - I put a lot of thought into it, and I'm sticking to it. This thread was not to be a religious debate, but rather, that if I do something as simple as not go to Chapel after dinner if I go to the academy, will it be a big deal? And I don't make a big deal out of it either, I don't even mention it unless someone asks. And I don't say "God doesn't exist.", I say, "I don't believe in any particular religion." There's quite a difference, and I think I know, with a very large degree of certainty, that there's not enough concrete info in universe to make a desicion of that nature.

And on "Playing the Game", I'm pretty used to it. I don't really like to, but I deal with it when I have to. What I wanted to know was if that was entirely necessary. I don't care if someone is religious, as long as they don't force it down other people's throats. If your God(Or Hell, if Zeus, or Quezacoatl, or Shiva, or whoever comes knocking at my doorstep) feels the need to show themselves to me, then that's fine. Until then I don't care to believe in any particular deity. Not saying they don't exist, I'm a mere mortal, and it's not my place to make such a claim.

In anycase, thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll have a better look up there in a couple weeks. Unless someone decides to hang me from tree for not believing, it's not a big enough deal to get riled up over. I just wanted to make sure it was nothing more serious than the intolerance that can be found ANYWHERE else.

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

Just saw this report on Yahoo News:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20050624/cm_usatoday/academyneedslessonintolerance;_ylt=As5bnZkXvESKX8wzkOFHa4Ks0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3YWFzYnA2BHNlYwM3NDI-

Is this what you were referring to?

Dammerung

If Religion is going to be a major player in your views on going to the AFA then i think you might wanna persue other avenues......Not putting you down but being in the AF active duty i personally seen one incident of religion get brought up.........if your more worried about it maybe you should become a priest............Best of Luck!

I sincerely apologize to anyone I may have behooved or insulted with my initial post in this forum regarding this issue. It does not reflect upon anything, person, or religion. It is simply my life and how I have chosen to live it. It is the way things have worked out for me, Dammerung - wish you the best of luck. Out.....

I've been doing the USAF thing for 25+ years (both AD and ANG) and I don't think you have anything to worry about. Religious tolerance is required. Zoomieland seems to be having some problems lately but part of it stems from their elite outlook. Since this most recent event has come to the public eye they will be very careful in the future to prevent future occurrences. There were sexual harrassment problems a few years back and those appear to have been fixed. Once away from Zoomieland you shouldn't have any problems. Religion is rarely discussed in the workplace and the most you see the Chaplains and prayers/Bible is when deploying/deployed to combat ops. The Chaplains will visit shops, bless pilots and jets, etc. so if seeing that bothers you then I'd avoid the US military. But you won't be required to have any religious affilliation in order to progress. There's lots of four star generals who never go to church. And you can list "No religious affiliation" and that's what they'll put in your personnel files and on your dogtags. Or you can list "atheist" if you'd like. Most people won't even blink at it. And if you are laying there dying the chaplains will probably still say a prayer for you and not curse you. It is amazing how many non-religious folks will take the free Bible when going though the mobility line before going to a combat zone. And a lot of people who never go to church stop at the chaplains table.

Regarding the descrimination at USAFA and the subsequent posts:

The essential truth of the matter is that no-one can descriminate against anyone because of their beliefs. Thus to bully someone into being a Christian or vice versa is completely out of order. The US Constitution confirms this.(It's worth noting the forefathers of the USA were almost all devout Christians!)

Christians who are sincere should be able to tell you straight-off that the matter of believing in Jesus Christ as risen Saviour is a problem strictly for God alone. Christians are calld to pray and only open their mouths if someone approaches them accordingly.

This important balance is not found because Christians:

-do not properly understand the Word of God and thus do not properly witness for Christ.

The resultant of this is people who find Christians and the like completely despicable. In fact to even to place one's self on a pedastool because of religion is completely loathsome.

If USAFA is openly bullying Christianity on their candidates; then I suggest those who find it offensive to "suck it up" and move on. The world is full of sh*t and the military is no exception.

Quote:

Christians who are sincere should be able to tell you straight-off that the matter of believing in Jesus Christ as risen Saviour is a problem strictly for God alone. Christians are calld to pray and only open their mouths if someone approaches them accordingly.

"Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will turn back to you.

Save me from bloodguilt, O God,
the God who saves me,
and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.

O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise."

-Psalm 51:12-15

I just wanted to add that in response to fighter pilot's comment. I do agree that Christians should not be rude or pressing when teaching others of Christianity, but I can find you plenty of more evidence throughout the bible other than this excerpt of how we must spread the word of Christ. As for the Academy, I doubt you will have that huge of a problem there. I'm sure the presence of Christianity is very strong. The most striking feature of the Air Force Academy is the Cadet Chapel, where many cadets gather to worship. Like fighter pilot said, though, if you can't handle that strong presence than either suck it up or just don't go there. Do ROTC or something where you won't feel as pressured. As for myself, I too am an aspiring cadet, and I don't know how I could ever make it through the AFA without God. But I guess other people have their ways.

Forum: Future F-16 crew

Slightly concerned about Religious atmosphere at USAFA