Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Be sure to talk to Gums abot the A-37. He flew it. Good strike plane. And could fly on one engine to save fuel. Amazing plane...

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I think it's about time we got this one going again, since now that I think back on it, it would have been very interesting to talk about the various planes that were used for CAS.

Haven't seen this thread. I haven't read all the post but am sure that many mentioned the A-10 in one form or another.

CAS can be needed or required at anytime, anywhere, and dependent on the situation so it's difficult for any one platform to fulfill all possible scenarios.

I'd say the A-10 (especially the upgraded A-10C) is indispensable. The F-35 A&B versions will provide good time-sensitive CAS (which A-10s may not be able to provide) at medium to high altitudes using precision guided munitions.

Ju-87D Stuka. Of course, we would have to replace the Junkers Jumo 211 engine with the appropriate GE F110 but with a little work it would fit. And okay, give the guy in the back a better gun too. Seriously, nothing says "CAS" like a Stuka in a dive with those little sirens shrieking in the wind.

Alright, I say an A-10 with uprated engines for an extra 150 knots or so. But then again, maybe the wing design won't let it go that fast with even a Saturn rocket strapped to the back.

Here's my choices:

First of all, put the guns back into Rare Bear and see how fast the Reno racetrack clears out.

Piston Powered
Hawker Hurricane with tank busting cannons
JU87 Stuka with tank busting cannons
IL-2 Sturmovik
Bristol Beaufighter MK X
De Havilland Mosquito FB VI
P-47 Thunderbolt
Hawker Sea Fury
Focke-Wulf 190D
Grumman Bearcat F-8F
Chance-Vought Corsair F-4U
De Havilland Hornet F-3
Lockheed Lightning P-38L
Douglas Skyraider AD-1
Douglas AC-47 Spooky

Turboprop
Piper PA-48 Enforcer
Lockheed AC-130 Spectre
Rockwell OV-10 Bronco

Jet - Out of Service
Cessna A-37 Dragonfly
Hawker Hunter FGA-9
Douglas A-4 Skyhawk
Ling-Temco-Vought A-7E Corsair II
Grumman F-9F Panther
Grumman A-6 Intruder
Hawker Harrier

Jet - Active Aircraft
Mcdonnell Douglas (Boeing) AV8-B Harrier
Republic Fairchild A-10 Warthog
F-16 C/D Viper
Panavia Tornado MK IV
Mcdonnell Douglas (Boeing) F/A-18D Hornet
Sukhoi SU-25 & SU-28 Frogfoot
Sukhoi SU-25K Scorpion
Sukhoi SU-39

Interesting and sad to note how many of these companies are no more.

1. A-10 hands down. 2. An A-10 flown by an IAF pilot 3. Anything every flown by an IAF pilot 4. See 1, 2 and 3

Nice list but you forgot the Hawker Typhoon! That was the RAF main CAS platform from D-Day to VE Day and very succesful at it too! (Far more so than it's intended fighter role). Nice to see that the Hurricane IID (40mm Cannon) made the list! Your right that there are a lot of great names no longer with us...

I'd also say that the GR Mk 9A Harrier is a slightly better CAS platform than the AV-8B version due to it's larger engine (increased load), built in ECM and nav systems, plus better range of weapons (Brimstone, Maverick, PWIV and Enhanced Paveway DGB). But I guess it falls under the general category of 'AV-8B Harrier' so it's a minor quibble.

Safetystick, I thought about the Typhoon however with it's difficult history during service entry I discounted it in place of the Sea Fury which was the last fighter bomber aircraft to shoot down a MIG 15.

The GR MK 9A is a derivative of the AV 8B Night Attack (non radar) bird, however it does not carry operational cannons, something which is necessary for CAS. The SHAR carried the upgraded 30MM STRADENS until they went out of service.

The update of the old but effective ADEN 30MM cannons failed when they tried to convert it to the ADEN 25MM to take a common ammunition with the GAU-12.

The AV8B Night Radar bird is the best of the breed for CAS.

LWF wrote:

Ideally the plane would be small, to present less of a target.
It would pack a powerful gun around 30 mm, to take out most anything.
It should have long but not large wings, for low level maneuverability.
Very long loiter time, to spend more time supporting the troops on the ground.
The pilot area should be well armored because in American and Israeli wars, about 18% of planes brought down were because of pilot incapacitation.
The fuel tanks need to be seperated and shielded and in the body not the wings, because many planes are destroyed by fuel fires.
The plane needs redundant flight controls, and control surfaces because loss of controls or control surfaces is a large cause of destroyed planes.
It needs to be easily maintained, with the innards accessible, and the parts need to be interchangeable, so what can be used in the right side can be used in the left, and vice versa.
And the plane needs armor in the entirety of the plane to prevent "the golden BB" as pilots call it.
But one aspect that the plane would especially need is low cost so the battlefield can be flooded with them.

I'd add the ability to operate out of very primitive bases.
Ie supported by a Humvee w spare parts, a fuel truck a bobcat to help lift the heavy munitions. serviced by an aviation tech specialist and 5 assistants.

Just on these criteria the F-35 fails as a candidate.

The SU-39 looks like a good candidate though.

I would have to put the SH at the top of the list for todays CAS aircraft. Not only can a single SH perform CAS missions, one can also be a FAC/A. With the payload, APG 79, ATFLIR, JHMCS, MIDS and being able to carry pretty much every weapon in the US inventory its hard to beat a Rhino. We dropped 11 MK 83's in 1 stick out at Fallon a couple months ago. That was after loitering for over an hour (w/ no centerline or external tanks) waiting to get into the range. With the new systems and computers in the F-18 E/F's as well as redundant systems(motors, hyds, flt computers, Mission Computers etc..) it's one heck of a CAS platform. The Rhino can hold its own in A/A, but it really shines in the A/G arena. The Rhino is on heck of a striker.

allenperos wrote:

This is a great issue and for many, a difficult proposition to say the least. So where do we start? A-4, A-7, A-10, F-105, F-4, or F-16? I've heard many stories from Naval Aviators about the SkyHawk (A-4). Small, agile, quick, high payload (greater than the B-17). Flew the most sorties in Vietnam, perhaps a "Super SkyHawk"? It's too late. The Kuwaiti's had a nice version complete with drag chute and was replaced by the F/A-18.

The Scooter (i.e. A-4) was a hot little striker pound for pound! Yet, it also suffered very high losses in Vietnam! Sad

Quote:

INO
I would have to put the SH at the top of the list for todays CAS aircraft.

I really am starting to feel the love for the Rhino especially the later models. I think you do have a point about it being one of the better CAS birds especially given the fact that it is in reality a fighter more in the mold of the f-16. Your points are all well taken and the features you site are indeed useful for CAS.

The one thing that you did not mention that really sets it apart from your typical fighter playing CAS is it's outstanding performance at low speeds. I am sure you know better than I how your plane handles but am I wrong in saying that the Rhino has outstanding maneuverability when flying low and slow?

That said I think the A-10 has some advantages over the SH for CAS. Total redundancy for all flight control systems. Widely separated engines hidden from the ground to a great extent by the tail. A titanium cockpit impervious to 23mm rounds, her 30mm Avenger cannon and pilots who fly them that only do CAS.

In my opinion, with CAS low, slow and survivable are key.

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

The ideal CAS Plane