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Newbie Joined: Mar 13, 2008 Posts: 18 Status: Offline

All this talk about your allies might turn on you so we cannot sell the F-22 is ridiculous. Some Americans are starting to sound like a crack addict who becoming paranoid about everyone. I'll make this point it will not happen. If it does go into a hot war US v Europe I am sure both sides will end up in such a world of hurt that the world will be run by the Chinese. Remember Europe still has some 500 nuclear weapons and as I remember it only takes 50 to put the US into a coma for next 100 years. Europe has a greater population, GDP and only one capable of competing and beating the US in scientific and engineering fields.

The F-35 is a second rate aircraft that as far as the those in know in the RAAF is capable of being owned by aircraft such as the Su-30MKI and J-11B. The problem is not its stealth but simple aerodynamic performance figures such as speed, range, turning rates. The one thing creating headaches for australia is the F-35 has the following disadvantages compared to the F-111. (1) Much shorter range. (2) Lower carrying capacity of ordinace. (3) Cannot do mach 2.8 (RAAF f-111 max speed). Who cares if the opponent can detect you on radar if is he is chasing you. He does not have a hope of catching you as the F-111 massive internal fuel load allows it afterburn for sustained periods of time.

Australia needs the F-22.

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Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1034 Status: Offline

bluewolf20 wrote:

All this talk about your allies might turn on you so we cannot sell the F-22 is ridiculous. Some Americans are starting to sound like a crack addict who becoming paranoid about everyone. I'll make this point it will not happen. If it does go into a hot war US v Europe I am sure both sides will end up in such a world of hurt that the world will be run by the Chinese. Remember Europe still has some 500 nuclear weapons and as I remember it only takes 50 to put the US into a coma for next 100 years. Europe has a greater population, GDP and only one capable of competing and beating the US in scientific and engineering fields.

The F-35 is a second rate aircraft that as far as the those in know in the RAAF is capable of being owned by aircraft such as the Su-30MKI and J-11B. The problem is not its stealth but simple aerodynamic performance figures such as speed, range, turning rates. The one thing creating headaches for australia is the F-35 has the following disadvantages compared to the F-111. (1) Much shorter range. (2) Lower carrying capacity of ordinace. (3) Cannot do mach 2.8 (RAAF f-111 max speed). Who cares if the opponent can detect you on radar if is he is chasing you. He does not have a hope of catching you as the F-111 massive internal fuel load allows it afterburn for sustained periods of time.

Australia needs the F-22.

Yikes! Where to start...I'm not aware of a single European country that has a population greater than the US. Can you please enlighten me? Also..the science and engineering roles...I think we've come out on top there too...care to site an example of that?

FYI...the F-35 will be highly maneuverable...9g...so where are you pulling this from? I assure you, the F-111's cannot touch mach 2.8! Thank God those of us that know how to prosecute an air war don't follow your methods! This is your method: 'Quick, turn tail and run!'. If Australia wants to maintain that, okay...who are we to argue. You won't last long I'm afraid.

bluewolf20 wrote:

All this talk about your allies might turn on you so we cannot sell the F-22 is ridiculous. Some Americans are starting to sound like a crack addict who becoming paranoid about everyone. I'll make this point it will not happen. If it does go into a hot war US v Europe I am sure both sides will end up in such a world of hurt that the world will be run by the Chinese. Remember Europe still has some 500 nuclear weapons and as I remember it only takes 50 to put the US into a coma for next 100 years. Europe has a greater population, GDP and only one capable of competing and beating the US in scientific and engineering fields.

The F-35 is a second rate aircraft that as far as the those in know in the RAAF is capable of being owned by aircraft such as the Su-30MKI and J-11B. The problem is not its stealth but simple aerodynamic performance figures such as speed, range, turning rates. The one thing creating headaches for australia is the F-35 has the following disadvantages compared to the F-111. (1) Much shorter range. (2) Lower carrying capacity of ordinace. (3) Cannot do mach 2.8 (RAAF f-111 max speed). Who cares if the opponent can detect you on radar if is he is chasing you. He does not have a hope of catching you as the F-111 massive internal fuel load allows it afterburn for sustained periods of time.

Australia needs the F-22.

Sorry, but the F-35 is far from second rate! As a matter of fact the people that "do" know claim the performance between the F-22 and F-35 is extraordinarily close! As for range no current fighter even the F-22 would provide the unrefueled range of a Bomber like the F-111. Which, is exactly what the F-111 is.........a BOMBER! As for load carrying capabilities the F-35 can carry very respectable load. Yet, more importantly if can penetrate enemy defenses that no other fighter could even dream of. (including your venerable F-111) Let's also not forget the current PGM's and the ones coming down the road. Are vastly more accurate and needs much smaller warheads to do the same job as the ones used as recently as the last Gulf War. As for speed who says the F-111 is faster? Sure clean at altitude for 5 minutes maybe. Yet, that is hardly the whole flight envelope..........As a matter of fact it is very likely the F-35 can fly a High Subsonic speeds very efficiently and possibly even at low Supersonic Speeds! Here's a question........on a typical strike mission. Does the F-111 even break the speed of sound? If, so how long? As a matter of fact for all we know. The F-111 may burn more fuel in a brief mach one dash than a F-35 does for much of its flight profile. Sorry, but by reading the F-111 has a top speed of Mach 2.5 and has more range than a F-35. Is like saying a F-4 is superior to the F-16. Because it is faster and has longer range!

Newbie Joined: Mar 13, 2008 Posts: 18 Status: Offline

I was not suggesting for a moment the F-111 would engage anyone in a dogfight that would be sheer stupidity I was referring to the air to ground strike role. No secondly I referring to a mission profile where an F-111 would drop its ordnance on a target and leave prior to locals responding. Third the figure of mach 2.8 was indicated as it was the speed achieved after compressor modifications were performed on our F-111's that is not from wikipedia. It is a mute point as we are getting the F/A-18F to replace it in the short term.

That is my 10 cents.

Blue, I wish F-111 line was still running. Very Happy

I'd love to see a tailless, composite Delta-winged F-111 (like 16 XL), GE-132 engines, LO inlets, 2-D vectoring and even canards. Add a (V)4 radar, IRST, CFT, air launched version of SM-6 and AIM-120D, it would be the world's most supreme interceptor. Maybe > 65,000'/min climb? Satisfying strike, maritime, recce would be elemental. But hats off to the deterrence role RAAF Varks maintained.

As far as F-35s not being operational until 2018-19, and trying to configure some semblance of a sufficient Air Force in the meanwhile.. I'd recommend the AUS renegotiate SH contract to swap SHornets for an RAAF-configured Super-Eagle design, complete with SH-like LO refab, 2-D LON vectoring and armed with the SM-6 concept. The (v)4 radar, CFT range, avionics and load-out would suffice and compensate for weaknesses to F-35/22. Perhaps 2 years R&D, Operational by 2012? Slightly more $ than F-35 but better deterrence than SH. Maybe lease F-18s until delivery? Just my take.. Cheers.

Enthusiast Joined: Sep 30, 2007 Posts: 80 Status: Offline

bluewolf20 wrote:

All this talk about your allies might turn on you so we cannot sell the F-22 is ridiculous. Some Americans are starting to sound like a crack addict who becoming paranoid about everyone. I'll make this point it will not happen. If it does go into a hot war US v Europe I am sure both sides will end up in such a world of hurt that the world will be run by the Chinese. Remember Europe still has some 500 nuclear weapons and as I remember it only takes 50 to put the US into a coma for next 100 years. Europe has a greater population, GDP and only one capable of competing and beating the US in scientific and engineering fields.

The F-35 is a second rate aircraft that as far as the those in know in the RAAF is capable of being owned by aircraft such as the Su-30MKI and J-11B. The problem is not its stealth but simple aerodynamic performance figures such as speed, range, turning rates. The one thing creating headaches for australia is the F-35 has the following disadvantages compared to the F-111. (1) Much shorter range. (2) Lower carrying capacity of ordinace. (3) Cannot do mach 2.8 (RAAF f-111 max speed). Who cares if the opponent can detect you on radar if is he is chasing you. He does not have a hope of catching you as the F-111 massive internal fuel load allows it afterburn for sustained periods of time.

Australia needs the F-22.

...

Sorry to start off with two emoticons but your a laugh a minuet mate.

The F-35 will eat any flanker derivative and not even have any heartburn. the RAAF knows so. Just because APA and AVM Criss want to manipulate the stupid mainstream Australian media with ridiculous arguments as to the F-35's "inferiority" to the flanker doesn't make them right. AVM Criss is a bitter old man, he was removed after a year in the RAAF's top strata for incompetence. none of his arguments make any sense and everyone in the RAAF knows he's a bitter old man doing this for his own personal reasons. The combination VLO platforms, Wedgetail & EA means a flanker is toast.

As for your F-111 analysis, well there's a few flaws.

1) Range. Under the current doctrine the F-111 can not conduct a strike mission without a fighter escort if there is any sort of an air threat. This is because of one simple reason; low altitude, high speed ingress is no defense against modern radar/missile combinations. Simply the PiG isn't survivable in the modern threat environment without heavy SEAD/DEAD & fighter support. Therefore any range advantage is useless because the pig is tied to the escort platforms,i.e. the same range as an F/A-18C. The F-35A which can self escort will have more than twice the range of the F-111 in real terms.

2) Payload. Unless your carrying single items that are heavy, i.e. tactical nukes, what matters in this case isn't just your max payload weight but how much you can actually carry, and in this case the F-35A or even the F/A-18F is significantly Superior. The F-111 has 5 hardpoints available for carrying ordinance. For most strike missions the bomb bay is taken up by the pave tack pod, the outer hardpoints are taken up bu in most cases an AIM9L & an ECM pod. That leaves 2 hardpoints for weapons, usually 2000lb Paveway II's, hardly Buff material is it? The F-35 can carry the same 2x 2000lb bombs (or JSOW's) + 2X AMRAAM's (or ASRAAM/9x/combination) internally. The targeting pod and ECM are carried internally and are 2~3 generations more advanced. Therefore the F-35 can carry the same payload + BVRAAM's while remaining clean & maintaining VLO. Of course if you wanted to go dirty conceivably the F-35 could carry 36 SDB's + 2 AAM's. Thats 36 individual targets hit at stand off range & self escort capability vs 2. Again in real terms the F-35A has the payload advantage.

3) Speed. so what? Speed by itself means nothing, what matters is the effect it has on the tactical situation and thats something you clearly do not understand:

Quote:

Who cares if the opponent can detect you on radar if is he is chasing you. He does not have a hope of catching you as the F-111 massive internal fuel load allows it afterburn for sustained periods of time.

Who cares if you cant catch the F-111 when its running away from you when you can shoot it down as it's coming towards you? Anyway the F-111 barely ever flies combat profiles at high altitude (were those speeds are possible), it relies on low altitude ingress to mask its presence. At low level the F-111 cant even go supersonic, and this is the profile the F-111 uses in real strike profiles. So again in real terms the F-111's speed advantage is useless.

I've put my thoughts on this in more detail here:

http://ozzyblizzard.blogspot.com/

Ozzy_Blizzard wrote:

bluewolf20 wrote:

All this talk about your allies might turn on you so we cannot sell the F-22 is ridiculous. Some Americans are starting to sound like a crack addict who becoming paranoid about everyone. I'll make this point it will not happen. If it does go into a hot war US v Europe I am sure both sides will end up in such a world of hurt that the world will be run by the Chinese. Remember Europe still has some 500 nuclear weapons and as I remember it only takes 50 to put the US into a coma for next 100 years. Europe has a greater population, GDP and only one capable of competing and beating the US in scientific and engineering fields.

The F-35 is a second rate aircraft that as far as the those in know in the RAAF is capable of being owned by aircraft such as the Su-30MKI and J-11B. The problem is not its stealth but simple aerodynamic performance figures such as speed, range, turning rates. The one thing creating headaches for australia is the F-35 has the following disadvantages compared to the F-111. (1) Much shorter range. (2) Lower carrying capacity of ordinace. (3) Cannot do mach 2.8 (RAAF f-111 max speed). Who cares if the opponent can detect you on radar if is he is chasing you. He does not have a hope of catching you as the F-111 massive internal fuel load allows it afterburn for sustained periods of time.

Australia needs the F-22.

...

Sorry to start off with two emoticons but your a laugh a minuet mate.

The F-35 will eat any flanker derivative and not even have any heartburn. the RAAF knows so. Just because APA and AVM Criss want to manipulate the stupid mainstream Australian media with ridiculous arguments as to the F-35's "inferiority" to the flanker doesn't make them right. AVM Criss is a bitter old man, he was removed after a year in the RAAF's top strata for incompetence. none of his arguments make any sense and everyone in the RAAF knows he's a bitter old man doing this for his own personal reasons. The combination VLO platforms, Wedgetail & EA means a flanker is toast.

As for your F-111 analysis, well there's a few flaws.

1) Range. Under the current doctrine the F-111 can not conduct a strike mission without a fighter escort if there is any sort of an air threat. This is because of one simple reason; low altitude, high speed ingress is no defense against modern radar/missile combinations. Simply the PiG isn't survivable in the modern threat environment without heavy SEAD/DEAD & fighter support. Therefore any range advantage is useless because the pig is tied to the escort platforms,i.e. the same range as an F/A-18C. The F-35A which can self escort will have more than twice the range of the F-111 in real terms.

2) Payload. Unless your carrying single items that are heavy, i.e. tactical nukes, what matters in this case isn't just your max payload weight but how much you can actually carry, and in this case the F-35A or even the F/A-18F is significantly Superior. The F-111 has 5 hardpoints available for carrying ordinance. For most strike missions the bomb bay is taken up by the pave tack pod, the outer hardpoints are taken up bu in most cases an AIM9L & an ECM pod. That leaves 2 hardpoints for weapons, usually 2000lb Paveway II's, hardly Buff material is it? The F-35 can carry the same 2x 2000lb bombs (or JSOW's) + 2X AMRAAM's (or ASRAAM/9x/combination) internally. The targeting pod and ECM are carried internally and are 2~3 generations more advanced. Therefore the F-35 can carry the same payload + BVRAAM's while remaining clean & maintaining VLO. Of course if you wanted to go dirty conceivably the F-35 could carry 36 SDB's + 2 AAM's. Thats 36 individual targets hit at stand off range & self escort capability vs 2. Again in real terms the F-35A has the payload advantage.

3) Speed. so what? Speed by itself means nothing, what matters is the effect it has on the tactical situation and thats something you clearly do not understand:

Quote:

Who cares if the opponent can detect you on radar if is he is chasing you. He does not have a hope of catching you as the F-111 massive internal fuel load allows it afterburn for sustained periods of time.

Who cares if you cant catch the F-111 when its running away from you when you can shoot it down as it's coming towards you? Anyway the F-111 barely ever flies combat profiles at high altitude (were those speeds are possible), it relies on low altitude ingress to mask its presence. At low level the F-111 cant even go supersonic, and this is the profile the F-111 uses in real strike profiles. So again in real terms the F-111's speed advantage is useless.

I've put my thoughts on this in more detail here:

http://ozzyblizzard.blogspot.com/

You bring up some very good points................the Super Hornet to be followed by the Lightning. Will provide Australia with a capability far superior to anything is SE Asia.

Enthusiast Joined: Jun 20, 2008 Posts: 42 Status: Offline

Why do people say the F-35 is slow? Top speed is recorded at 1200mph which is a tab bit faster than the combat proven F/A-18.

Also the F-35 will make any Russian Flanker its bitch. LMAO

bluewolf20 wrote:

The F-35 is a second rate aircraft that as far as the those in know in the RAAF is capable of being owned by aircraft such as the Su-30MKI and J-11B. The problem is not its stealth but simple aerodynamic performance figures such as speed, range, turning rates. The one thing creating headaches for australia is the F-35 has the following disadvantages compared to the F-111. (1) Much shorter range. (2) Lower carrying capacity of ordinace. (3) Cannot do mach 2.8 (RAAF f-111 max speed). Who cares if the opponent can detect you on radar if is he is chasing you. He does not have a hope of catching you as the F-111 massive internal fuel load allows it afterburn for sustained periods of time.

Australia needs the F-22.

1. No it is not "much" shorter. The F-35A will have a mission radius of 740nm in "typical" configuration on internal fuel alone. That is better than any other tactical fighter on internal fuel. As addressed by Ozzy already, it is a fallacy put forward by disengenous proponents of a bygone era that the F-111 has a more useful operational range than an F-35 or even an F/A-18.

2. "Lower carrying capacity of ordinace". Again addressed by Ozzy, but you are talking about dumb bomb carriage. I doubt that the F-35 will EVER carry dumb bombs in operational mission for Australia. Australian rules of engagement simply will NOT allow for it. Only PGM's will be authorised to be dropped. In GW2 where Australian F/A-18's dropped 130 odd Paveway II's on Iraqi tanks, air defence sites and other military targets, EVERY SINGLE WEAPON launched against a target was personally approved by the Chief of the Defence force, before the target was engaged, because of collateral damage concerns. Dropping 24x "dumb bombs" is NOT a tasking that Australian political concerns will allow RAAF to conduct and therefore is irrelevent.

As Ozzie pointed out, the difference in PGM carriage capability favours the F-35.

3. Cannot do mach 2.8? What can? An F-111 loaded up with externally carried 2000lbs Paveway II's? HA! Prove it. You've made the claim...

As to your other points, I couldn't even be bothered discussing them except to offer up a phrase with which you are obviously unfamiliar. It's known as a "mission kill". Find out what that means and then come back to us and see if you still think running away every time a red air theat presents itself is a useful operational tactic...

Newbie Joined: Jun 26, 2008 Posts: 13 Status: Offline

bluewolf20 wrote:

All this talk about your allies might turn on you so we cannot sell the F-22 is ridiculous. Some Americans are starting to sound like a crack addict who becoming paranoid about everyone. I'll make this point it will not happen. If it does go into a hot war US v Europe I am sure both sides will end up in such a world of hurt that the world will be run by the Chinese. Remember Europe still has some 500 nuclear weapons and as I remember it only takes 50 to put the US into a coma for next 100 years. Europe has a greater population, GDP and only one capable of competing and beating the US in scientific and engineering fields.

The F-35 is a second rate aircraft that as far as the those in know in the RAAF is capable of being owned by aircraft such as the Su-30MKI and J-11B. The problem is not its stealth but simple aerodynamic performance figures such as speed, range, turning rates. The one thing creating headaches for australia is the F-35 has the following disadvantages compared to the F-111. (1) Much shorter range. (2) Lower carrying capacity of ordinace. (3) Cannot do mach 2.8 (RAAF f-111 max speed). Who cares if the opponent can detect you on radar if is he is chasing you. He does not have a hope of catching you as the F-111 massive internal fuel load allows it afterburn for sustained periods of time.

Australia needs the F-22.

The F-22 isnt sold to other countries because of possible compromise. We dont moniter their training methods, and therefore, a country could have an untrained person flying the F-22, and get shot down and the wreckage lands in the middle of Russia. We dont want that to happen, no matter how small the risk. And while I wouldnt agree with the F-35 being 2nd rate, in my opinion, something's missing compared to previous gen fighters. But the F-111 being better is just ridiculous. I'd like to see it try to dogfight someone. That'll be the day.

bluewolf20 wrote:

The F-35 is a second rate aircraft that as far as the those in know in the RAAF is capable of being owned by aircraft such as the Su-30MKI and J-11B. The problem is not its stealth but simple aerodynamic performance figures such as speed, range, turning rates. The one thing creating headaches for australia is the F-35 has the following disadvantages compared to the F-111. (1) Much shorter range. (2) Lower carrying capacity of ordinace. (3) Cannot do mach 2.8 (RAAF f-111 max speed). Who cares if the opponent can detect you on radar if is he is chasing you. He does not have a hope of catching you as the F-111 massive internal fuel load allows it afterburn for sustained periods of time.

Australia needs the F-22.

Disagree with your opinions and wrong on your facts.

Corsair1963 wrote:

As a matter of fact the people that "do" know claim the performance between the F-22 and F-35 is extraordinarily close!

Huh?!?

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