Forum: F-22A Raptor

The real question is why are selling such a great pieace of equipment like the F-35. USA shouldve of built the F-35 as our new front line Fighter, the F-22 shouldve been kept in the dark for real threats and 1 more 4.5 gen fighter shouldve been built for the exporting competition.

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Im still going to bring this point up over and over again.

The F-35 is all that is needed for now.

The F-35 is cost effective reaching a potential of 3 F-35 for 1 F-22.

For that Price you get a Fighter that can Full Fill all roles.
F-35A- CTOL
F-35B STOVL
F-35C Carrier Variant

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will be:

Four times more effective than legacy fighters in air-to-air engagements
Eight times more effective than legacy fighters in prosecuting missions against fixed and mobile targets
Three times more effective than legacy fighters in non-traditional Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance (ISR) and Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses and Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD/DEAD) missions
About the same in procurement cost as legacy fighters, but requires significantly less tanker/transport and less infrastructure with a smaller basing footprint

Its also 2nd to the F-22 in Air to Air.
Its Avionics are a Generation ahead.

Plus since other nations are goin to have a F-35, i would rather see F-35 vs F-35 because that would take skill. Also its not worth losing a F-22 against a F-35 who pulls that kill.

MKeldergod wrote:

The F-35 is cost effective reaching a potential of 3 F-35 for 1 F-22.

The amazing thing is that while you post that, there is no way for you to know how much its going to cost. Its not even in LRIP yet!!

MKeldergod wrote:

Checks the only threat we have is the Middle East. Which has already shown to be nothing for the USA. The F-15C/E/F/K can still fly with the current threat. Its not like if we flew the F-15/F-18/F-16 we would lose a war. The F-15 can still fly with all the the A/C out now.
Also the price I got at globalsecuirty.org said one F-35 is 44.5 mil. If the price hsd gotten higher than so has the F-22. I brought up a good point before. If we went to war with any country the F-35 is all we need.

If you think that, then I don't know what to tell you...as far as the cost...production cost is not set yet as they are not even in LRIP. As my post above states they are currently $170+ Million each. Thats not a made up or guessed number, thats from the 2007 DoD budget.

Check

Chex show me that website Id like to read it.

Anyway the F-22 is really made for Air Domiance, sending it to bomb would just be high risk of losing a nice pieace of a$$ Wink

. From what ive seen with the F-15 and the F-16 (f-22 and F-35). You could buy 2-3 F-16 vs one F-15. This will be the faith of the F-35 wether you think so or not. Especailly when one Jet can fullfill plenty of roles. Also unlike the F-16, the F-35 is 1 Gen ahead of other A/C.

MKeldergod wrote:

Chex show me that website Id like to read it.

I'll gladly do the work for you. First, using that crazy yahoo search thingy, search "DoD budget". Second, click the very first link that pops up which is -- http://www.dod.mil/comptroller/defbudge ... index.html

From there, hopefully...and I'm really crossing my fingers here...you can find the information.

--Check

elp wrote:

Help me out. Please explain that last sentence.

While he's at it maybe he could explain how having one $40 billion F-22 sitting at Area 51 is a good idea. Twisted Evil

Quote:

While he's at it maybe he could explain how having one $40 billion F-22 sitting at Area 51 is a good idea.

LOL.

MKeldergod wrote:

Im still going to bring this point up over and over again.

Plus since other nations are goin to have a F-35, i would rather see F-35 vs F-35 because that would take skill. Also its not worth losing a F-22 against a F-35 who pulls that kill.

I'd like to know what you mean by that as well. You'd LIKE to see an F-35 in combat against another one? Well, I don't think your entertainment is forefront in peoples' minds when they're evaluating weapons program procurements.

Very strange.

MKeldergod wrote:

Chex show me that website Id like to read it.

Anyway the F-22 is really made for Air Domiance, sending it to bomb would just be high risk of losing a nice pieace of a$$ Wink

. From what ive seen with the F-15 and the F-16 (f-22 and F-35). You could buy 2-3 F-16 vs one F-15. This will be the faith of the F-35 wether you think so or not. Especailly when one Jet can fullfill plenty of roles. Also unlike the F-16, the F-35 is 1 Gen ahead of other A/C.

F-22 has it's own rule book that tough legacy IADS are going to have to try and defeat and I don't think it is going to happen. Penetrating far into an IADS and breaking down the fixed IADS assests....with SDB, JDAM and ISR back to other strike assets IS air domination. Just as much as using the air to air stuff. Legacys that don't get up into the air will be grounded for good. Of course it is all team work. But you want F-22 on the tip of that spear.

The F-22 is worth it, it is the new F-15. We'll get our money out of it gents, just wait.

MKeldergod wrote:

What I meant by that statement was it would suck if a F-22 got shot down by an enemy F-35 because that is likely.

Hardly. You must forgive me, but I doubt you are a member of either the Raptor of the JSF team. So I doubt you know the capabilities of either. At the moment (AA-1 being the only flying F-35) the JSF lack the capabilities to shoot anything down. As far as future engagements, look at it this way: We are selling the JSF to foreign powers, but keeping the Raptor to ourselves. That says alot about the Raptors capabilities when compared to what the JSF is supposed to be able to do.

MKeldergod wrote:

This will be the cost effective A/C. Globalsecurity.org states 44.5 per F-35A and i bealive that figure. The F-35A is a 2.5-3 for every 1 F-22.

Globalsecurity.org, while a nice source to get info, is a third party source with no affiliation to DoD. While it is nice this is what you believe, these are just speculations. The truth is, we do not know the final cost of the JSF because as stated before it has not even entered LRIP yet.

MKeldergod wrote:

I still think the F-22 is better but the F-35 is cost effective. Ive read articles where they say the F-22 is a waste of money or they wanted to cancel it because there is no need for such a plane.

Again, we have no clue how cost effective the JSF is really going to be at this time. Also I would like to make light to the fact that the JSF saved money 'cause it is using a lot of the same technology that went into the Raptor. If the JSF was conceived of first, it would not be the "cheap" aircraft you think it is going to be. Also, you are reading articles from a third party source. I have read a lot of the same articles as you probably have, and a lot of them are based on fact less assumptions. Try reading some articles put out by the end users, the USAF loves the Raptor.

MKeldergod wrote:

Ive been watching and reading about new weapons USA is making. I just thought to my self WHAT A WASTE. Do you know that these kind of weapons make war more expensive? Iraq is showing us how much it hurts to wage a war with a country like that. You might win the war but youll lose alot of money at the end. Either way YOU LOSE.

Again, same as above. It is not the weapons so much that make war expensive, but the ineffective way it is waged. So if you are trying to say WE LOSE because you see the Raptor as a waste, alot of people are the exact opposite. They see the JSF as a waste. We already have the Raptor (remember it stems from a requirement put forth during the 1980's) and it has more than proven itself so far (sans a nasty little IDL incident). Is the JSF a neat aircraft, yes, but it is a little too late now that we have a bird like the Raptor.

Hope this makes sense. First weekend of spring break and I am a little incoherent and hungover. Beer

Quote:

God, can we get this thread locked yet or what!!?

Come on Check, this is a forum.Exchange ideas, free speech and all that. Its no fun when everyone agrees no matter how silly some of the ideas are.

MKeldergod its safe to assume your views about the Raptor are in the minority here. In fact there have been some very good arguments made to do away with or at the very leastc ut back on the JSF for more Raptors and updated legacy AC. I suggest you go through some of the posts on this board on the subject. It makes for good informative reading.

Keep in mind neither the JSF or Raptor are built or needed for today's threats. Just like the F-16/F15 totally out classed their contemporaries 30 years ago, JSF and Raptor are meant to ensure our superiority well in to the future. Try not to fall in to the NY Times syndrome. "Good enough" and "parity" are not acceptable.

MKeldergod wrote:

Yes its possible for an F-35 to shoot down a F-22 because of stealth and avionics. One big reason the F-22 is so nasty in A2A is because stealth which the F-35 has. Though the F-22 does outperform the F-35.

You can not possibly know this. Unless of course you are an engineer or a member of the Raptor or JSF team. The F-22 was designed to be a complete A2A power house. From a design prospective the JSF comes no where close. Does the JSF have a better chance than legacy fighters? Yes, but that is not saying much.

MKeldergod wrote:

It just mean your not a economically literate.

I'm probably not the most economically literate person, far from it actually. Judging from your understanding of the programs, however, shows that you fail to look at the bigger picture. A large amount of research for the JSF was done on the Raptor. The technology was already there, so if we never did the Raptor, you can bet that the JSF would be a hell of a lot more expensive then it is already.

PhillyGuy wrote:

there is a reason people get life insurance, the Raptor provides security for an increasingly uncertain future... That my friend is PRICELESS.

Exactly.

Yeah, your right...its just way off topic now. He is set in his ways, though budget proves it to be extremely expensive, he fires back with a price (which by the way is undetermined at this time) from a website almost as bad as Wiki as far as facts go. I wrote it before and I'll say it again....XXXX VS. XXXX will always end this way. Its obvious that the program is going to go over budget as they are now offering incentives on purchasing early.....Check

Forum: F-22A Raptor

F-22 Raptor vs F-35 Joint Strike Fighter