Forum: F-22A Raptor

shep1978 wrote:

skyhigh wrote:

Wrong!

The Russkies and Chicoms will be the most formidable duo ever to fight the United States.

F-22 Raptor = World's potentially largest distributor of Sukhoi parts!

I think you missed countrymans sarcasm... Wink

Actually it was me who wrote the lil bit about the Ruskies and Chicoms and tradeing in the Army, blah blah. And YES, it was complete sarcasm lol

SkyHigh is certainly entertaning Wink

I honestly do chuckle everytime he lays that 1100+ Raptors out there Wink

Not that I wouldnt like to see that many. But gawwdddddd, ELEVEN HUNDRED Raptors lol they must grow sum potent *herb* up there in Canook land eh?

Beazz

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edit,removed

Basically all the F-35 is is a F-22 that can take off vertically and carry a bigger payload.

baileyha14 wrote:

Basically all the F-35 is is a F-22 that can take off vertically and carry a bigger payload.

Basically this is completely wrong. The B model lands vertically. None take off vertically, or fly as fast/high as the Raptor. The F-35 does have a larger internal payload, and a greater array of sensors for A2G purposes.

Any unladen F-35B should be able to VTOL.

madrat wrote:

Any unladen F-35B should be able to VTOL.

And then do what exactly?

The F-22 is far superior in its nitch than the F-35. Sure, the F-35 can attack ground targets, but it will not nearly as well as fighters like the A-10 or F-15E. Why? It lacks survivability. The F-15E is extremley powerful with engine redundancy and tailplane redundancy, can carry a larger load, and is opperated more efficientley with a crew of 2. The A-10 has a great flight envelope, an unmatched 30mm nose canon, very large load, and is down right TOUGH. As for A-A, the Raptor is "stealthier", much more agile, and MADE to kill other fighters and nothing else (not counting its limited A-G abilities)

Sorry, but the F-35 is a mediocre excuse of a fighter, the Raptor would blow it out of the sky.

The F-35 is much more survivable than the A-10 and F-15E because it's really really hard to find, and has much, much better countermeasures. You can't blow the tailplane off of something you can't see.

Second crew member is more than compensated for in most missions with very good user interface combined and sensor fusion.

The Raptor is designed to shoot down other airplanes, yes. So? It also is very expensive to operate and maintain, and non-exportable. Not to mention can't carry as much AtG ordnance as an F-35 and has inferior sensors.

Now, I'm not sure if you're aware, but here in the US we have several branches of the military, and amazingly enough, they fly airplanes off of boats! They're called the NAVY and the MARINE CORPS. The F-22, F-15E, and A-10 are not options for them.

Sorry, but you fundamentally misunderstand the entire point of the F-35 and how it relates to the F-22.

Im fully aware of what the F-35's purpose is, smartass. The thread topic is which is better in its domain, the F-22 or the F-35. F-22 will quite simply kick the crap out of any A-A opposition. It has been proven in various exercises, nothing can touch it. On the other hand, the F-35 can be outclassed in some ways by 4th Gen fighters like the F-15E and A-10, esspecially the A-10 for its unmatched CAS.

shabah_cactus wrote:

Im fully aware of what the F-35's purpose is, smartass. The thread topic is which is better in its domain, the F-22 or the F-35. F-22 will quite simply kick the crap out of any A-A opposition. It has been proven in various exercises, nothing can touch it. On the other hand, the F-35 can be outclassed in some ways by 4th Gen fighters like the F-15E and A-10, esspecially the A-10 for its unmatched CAS.

Are you sure?

Quote:

. See: http://www.strategypage.com/militaryfor ... 4534.aspx, "Airborne detection of stealth aircraft may have already been accomplished in a series of tests done at Edwards AFB, Calif. in the second half of 2009. Those with insight into the research say Lockheed Martin?s CATbird avionics testbed ?a 737 that carries the F-35 joint strike fighter?s entire avionics system -- engaged a mixed force of F-22s and F-15s and was able to target the F-22s."

The major advantage of the F-22 was the fact it could not be seen. With the F-35 HOBS and Aim-9x (which the F-22 lacks) The F-22s are going to have to be EXTREMLY careful engaging F-35s. The F-35s aren't going to be easy prey.

svenphantom wrote:

The major advantage of the F-22 was the fact it could not be seen. With the F-35 HOBS and Aim-9x (which the F-22 lacks) The F-22s are going to have to be EXTREMLY careful engaging F-35s. The F-35s aren't going to be easy prey.

Actually an F-35 wouldn't realistically stand a chance against a Raptor, provided as it has no significant air superiority advantages to speak of. I'll just leave out the superior performance and agility for the sake of argument.

The Raptor first has a significantly more powerful tactical radar for AtA targets and is even more difficult to track than would an F-35. So if either one is going to be detected and shot down first, it's always going to be the Lightning II. Oh and those EXTERNAL AIM-9x's you suggest wouldn't do it much good either, with the added RCS, drag, and agility penalty. So it's not like the F-35 really would have much of an edge with a more agile opponent with a top-tier air superiority pilot.

So even with its future upgrades budget raped so that the JSF program could gorge like a pig, the F-22 still would overwhelmingly outmatch the F-35 under most circumstances. Give it the same upgrades as the F-35 and it would be almost invincible.

Other releases on the CatBird event state that the JSF hardware detected and jammed the F-22 radar. F-35 and F/A-18E/F are the only planes with said capability. So when on a lightning hunt the raptor is blind while the lightning is not. Even if the raptor could also jam the lightning, the EODAS will have an easy time picking up the 300 degree skin temperature and the 700 degree exhaust temperature against a -100 degree sky at bvr ranges. As far as launch ranges go anything the amraam loses by climbing the raptor makes up for by flying straight at it unaware (due to F-35 jamming) at 1.7 Mach.

The complete sensor domination by the lightning means even Raptors can have a disadvantage in A2A.

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

Other releases on the CatBird event state that the JSF hardware detected and jammed the F-22 radar. F-35 and F/A-18E/F are the only planes with said capability. So when on a lightning hunt the raptor is blind while the lightning is not. Even if the raptor could also jam the lightning, the EODAS will have an easy time picking up the 300 degree skin temperature and the 700 degree exhaust temperature against a -100 degree sky at bvr ranges. As far as launch ranges go anything the amraam loses by climbing the raptor makes up for by flying straight at it unaware (due to F-35 jamming) at 1.7 Mach.

The complete sensor domination by the lightning means even Raptors can have a disadvantage in A2A.

So, according to this exercise, the F-35 is superior in A-A to the F-22? What actually won the (simulated) engagment?

shabah_cactus wrote:

The F-22 is far superior in its nitch than the F-35. Sure, the F-35 can attack ground targets, but it will not nearly as well as fighters like the A-10 or F-15E. Why? It lacks survivability. The F-15E is extremley powerful with engine redundancy and tailplane redundancy, can carry a larger load, and is opperated more efficientley with a crew of 2. The A-10 has a great flight envelope, an unmatched 30mm nose canon, very large load, and is down right TOUGH. As for A-A, the Raptor is "stealthier", much more agile, and MADE to kill other fighters and nothing else (not counting its limited A-G abilities)

Sorry, but the F-35 is a mediocre excuse of a fighter, the Raptor would blow it out of the sky.

The F-22 is superior in A2A, and on this we're in agreement. The Raptor is stealthier than the F-35, and we're also in agreement here. Your arguments fall apart immediately after these claims though. The F-35 is stealthier than anything else out there, and more agile than any of the aircraft that it's replacing. The A-10 and F-15E are not more survivable, as survivability isn't based merely on how many times one can be shot. It's based upon not being seen, in order to not get shot in the first place. The 30mm gun is the only real advantage that the A-10 has, and it's an irrelevant advantage at that. Strafing is but one method of providing CAS, and not really the preferred one. The F-35 has far greater situational awareness, and greater ability to use PGMs outside of the range of AAA/MANPADs. As for the F-35's prowess as a fighter, being second only to the F-22 hardly qualifies as being mediocre.

In A2A, the F-22 has a BVR advantage due to better signals management. The F-35 has a slight chance in BVR if it can get a EOTS lock before the F-22 gets a radar lock.

In WVR it's a different story. For the F-22 to get a WVR kill it has to get the F-35 into a 120 cone to it's front in order to launch. The F-35 does not have this limitation and can launch at any time when the F-22 is within the AMRAAM's NEZ. IMHO, A F-22 vs F-35 WVR battle is to the F-35's advantage.

Forum: F-22A Raptor

F-22 Raptor vs F-35 Joint Strike Fighter