Forum: Off-topic

I don't understand why Bush is so scared that China might become very powerful. I mean come on, China is probably more interested in building their own economy instead of building their military. But from what I've heard from my parents, america has always been keeping an eye on china. And they asked Japan to keep an eye on China. Sorry but as a chinese person reading and hearing these things just pisses me off so much. Especially when we hear Japan in it cause my grandparents have told me all the things that they have done during world war 2. But what will the relationship between America and China in the future?

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Like, totally cool for you to post your ideas so frickin mature Smile

Anyway I understand this might be a sensitive issue for you, but think about this: In the 30's, everyone was convinced Germany was interested in building their economy, rebuilding from WWI, getting back on an economic even-keel kind of thing. Then, depending on who's storyline you follow, Germany kicked off WWII and caused heartache for millions of people.

Russia was our ally though WWII, but as soon as it was over they began building up their weapons stockpiles (just like the US did), claiming they needed a strong military to counter any threats and safely build their economy.

Japan started on their path of aggression in the Pacific on quasi-economic grounds, claiming they were reclaiming and/or taking islands they needed to protect their nation.

Depending on what side of the line you stand, it can be claimed Bush II went into Iraq on economic grounds, for the whole oil thing (I personally don't believe that one, but to each their own).

Bush I went in and threw Iraq out of Kuwait in the interest of economic stability in the region (plus its just considered rude to invade your neighbors)

And, with all due respect to your parents, check out some factual news sites on the web; China is doing a spectacular job of building their military, conducting regular war games, posturing against Taiwan, things like that.

Granted, Japan did a number on other countries during WWII; just about everyone did. Are you getting fired up over the hundreds of thousands of civilians the US killed in firebombings in Germany and Japan? Or the millions killed by Hitler in Germany? Or by Lenin and Stalin in Russia? What about the rampant human rights violations and repression that China has become famous for, right up to the present day?

Evey country out there, the US included, has its dark times and shady things that they've done. In the end every government in the world since the dawn of time looks out for their own, and if someone else suffers as a result, then tough. That doesn't make things right, by any means, but that is unfortunatly the way it is. Rarely is it as simple or one-sided as you seem to think, or at least as you came off in your post. I suggest a good class in Human Relations, International Relations, or Government; you might be suprized at how many different things interact to shape national policy, and the logic some countries follow in pursuit of their national goals. It isn't always pretty, and rarely does everyone come out smelling like roses.

You've put out a good discussion topic, I wouldn't be suprized if this one doesn't get a good bit of attention.

VPRGUY - I fully agree with everything you said.

But as for a the problems with the US and China, the Chinese present a threat to the US, a threat they actually don't have the grounds to do anything about. China has always been for themselves (which, in the grand scheme of global competition, I think is fair enough). America has also, but they've been more in the foreground in terms of manipulative politics. After all, one of the reasons (it could be argued the only reason) that they joined in WW1 was to have a certain amount of control over what happened to Germany after the war. Having said that, President Wilson did try to maintain a neutral policy towards the war and it was only when German U-Boats directly threatened US interests (shipping to the Allies if I remember correctly) that he abandoned neutrality and opted to join the Allied camp.

OK, that's slightly off topic but its an example of the US gaining the foreground in the political world. The chinese are usually quite quiet, preferring to do things on their own with what could be considered hidden motives. This is not meant to offend either side, because both act according to their own intentions and needs but it is meant to point out the difference between the two. The US will always feel threatened by China, to some extent. but then if China and the US swapped places in terms of powers, wouldn't the Chinese feel that same? Probably. powerbases and all of that always create a desire to be the best but at the same time feel threatened by those catching up. And I do believe that China is catching up to the US, in terms of becoming a semi-superpower of its own. Although it has perhaps a fair way to go before it is, especially in terms of the arms race.

I think its also got a lot to do with culture. As far as I can tell, the US likes to be in the foreground, and China prefers to be in the backround. This in itself should say a lot about the two differing intentions. for the fact that they have completely different perspectives on the same topics (thinks West versus East in this respect), there will always be a limited understanding of one another on either side. Maybe this will change but two big fish cant last in the same small pond forever right? especially if they have the same need for resources. I think its Gauses law which states that two organisms that need the same resources cannot co-exist for long. (lol just to bring a bit of biology into it) well something like that. This is not to say that China and America are going to have a big scrap or anything but I think it should be acknowledged that a bit of communication sooner or later wouldn't go a miss. I'm going to adopt a true Kiwi stance and say talk about it. Allies are better than enemies!!! And as long as it just stays watching its not that bad right??

Some of you may think this is a load of bollocks but its just my two cents. Smile

And by the way, I haven't actually studied Chinese-American relations in depth so this is definitely just personal opinion based on stuff I've read. Razz

Cheers

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Bwadwey wrote:

I don't understand why Bush is so scared that China might become very powerful. I mean come on, China is probably more interested in building their own economy instead of building their military. But from what I've heard from my parents, america has always been keeping an eye on china. And they asked Japan to keep an eye on China. Sorry but as a chinese person reading and hearing these things just pisses me off so much. Especially when we hear Japan in it cause my grandparents have told me all the things that they have done during world war 2. But what will the relationship between America and China in the future?

To add on Bwadwey, at the age of 14, I gather you're at the learning process in the area of your interests. Military History is an interesting subject and it is really good you're paying attention to current affairs.

To complete the Historical picture, I feel it is important for you to continue your understanding on the background to the China People's Liberation Army (ever wonder why they retain the name as such?), the rise of Communism, the Cultural Revolution, China's participation in the Korean War & Vietnam War etc.

And to understand why US is concern about the modernization of the PLA, you might want to read about the security situation in the Taiwan's Strait, Spratly Islands Dispute, India-China-Russia (members of "Nuclear Club") border issues etc.

I'm sure there are quite a collection of impartial on-line article to the above-suggestions. This article might be a good start.

cheers,

And one more thing, Japan should still apologize for what they've done in ww2 , not only to China but to Korea and other countries that they invaded. And i'm not sure if you know this but Japan's government (I have no clue what his name is) are trying to make teachers in school explain to their students that it was not their fault that they invaded China or other countries. So they're basicaly teaching kids that Japan had no fault in WWII. And riots occured in China and Hong kong and I have a newspaper to prove that if some of you don't believe me.(except it's in chinese)

lol Well it being in Chinese might make things a little bit difficult but I do agree that Japan should apologise. from memory, they already have (or at least were supposed to) when they surrended just after the Nagasaki bombing. Hmmm I know that the US apologised for the use of nuclear weapons but maybe Japan didn't. Either way I still agree that they should apologise. As for the teaching thing, isn't it usually the case of wanting to shift the blame for something horrible? I know if I was them I would want to. but then again I tend to be completely honest when i've stuffed up so people can't mock me about it later. Yhe best way to counter mocking is to mock yourself, (in true Kiwi tradition Beer

lol) but saying they had NO fault in WWII is a little bit extreme.

These biases and misunderstandings will continue to occur as long as people keep formulating the majority of their opinions from the news media. The media as a whole is interested only in the parts of the news that will sell. And as long as that is going on you will have people believing that the USA is full of crime, pollution, and a bunch of warmongers. In reverse you will have a bunch of Americans who believe that all Muslims want every American dead. Neither one of these statements is true. But you wouldn't know it to listen to the news. It's very important to talk to and interact with people form other cultures and lands. That helps you get past the images that the news presents.

My Great Great-Grandfather was killed by the Cherokee Indians. Do I ask the modern Chreokee Nation for a formal apology and restitution? Come on - all those people are dead. Besides that - did I mention he was stealing a horse at the time? Of course under white law that wasn't illegal to be stealing from an Indian but it was illegal to steal from a white man. Not being able to let go of things that happened in the past leads to wars - and then a lot of people who had nothing to do with any of it get killed.

Bwadwey wrote:

And one more thing, Japan should still apologize for what they've done in ww2 , not only to China but to Korea and other countries that they invaded. And i'm not sure if you know this but Japan's government (I have no clue what his name is) are trying to make teachers in school explain to their students that it was not their fault that they invaded China or other countries. So they're basicaly teaching kids that Japan had no fault in WWII. And riots occured in China and Hong kong and I have a newspaper to prove that if some of you don't believe me.(except it's in chinese)

Should Japan apologize? Sure they should. But, to what extent? Who should be the one to decide when the apology is sufficient? It is my understanding they have apologized, to a degree, to certain people. For some, this was good enough; for others, there will never be a good enough apology. There is still alot of animosity towards the Japanese from a number of countries. I am in South Korea right now, and it is my understanding that alot of Koreans still don't like the Japanese because of what they did to Korea back in the day. From what I've read (and I may be wrong), the asian culture as a whole has a very strong basis in pride. I don't mean this as a negative statement, so please don't take it as such. But it seems to me, that while many cultures have something of a 'forgive and forget' attitude, this is not so among most asian cultures; they expect a much more sincere, heartfelt, and long term approach to things.

You mentioned the Japanese Government is pressing for their teachers to teach that "Japan was not at fault" for any of the issues of WWII; this may or may not be true. I'm sure there is that mindset, to a degree; most countries (hell, even most people) don't like to admit when they're wrong. I've gotten good at it because it happens so often, but anyway...this can be said of almost any country out there. Check out American teachings on the Revolutionary war and compare them to what Britain teaches their students; or what Italy teaches about their role in WWII, Vietnam about the Veitnam war; and back to China, about how they teach their students about the Korean war or the Tienemen Square incidents. Every free country usually tries to teach an unbiased, factual account of what happened in history. Oppressed countries teach what their government wants their people to learn, and to hell with the facts (i.e. USSR, Saddam's Iraq, North Vietnam back in the day, North Korea, etc). But no matter how factual an education system tries to be, it will almost always be the version that tries to paint their country (or their beliefs) in the best light, and each side has their own 'interpretation' of history. Thats what I was getting at talking about when comparing the teachings of two nations on the same, controversial subject. Even within the US, take a look at what the "north" teaches (through school or local 'hand-me-downs') verses the "south" about what happened during the Civil War. Two different inperpretaions on the same incidents, that are going to have their own spins on them.

Finally, you mentioned the riots in parts of China regarding these issues. Those were on the news, and it is understandable that people got fired up about everything. There were also reports that the Chinese government sanctioned some of these riots, and encouraged some to a certain degree. It was reported they also made efforts to curb some of them as well, and took a totally 'hands off' approach for others. I imagine all three of those reports had some basis in fact, and the Chinese government wasn't totally innocent in the riots and protests starting. That they also seemed to make efforts to slow some of them down is commendable.

Bwadwey, someone said in here you were only 14; if so, I agree with what they said, that it is impressive that you are taking an interest in international matters. I don't know if this is simply because of your heritage or not, but either way congrats on taking a stand and voicing your opinion, and taking part in open debates on a very weighty matter. I remember when I was 14 all I cared about was what I'd be doing for summer break Smile

Nicely said VPRGUY, especially concerning apologies and the asian pride thing. Mind you, people will hold a grudge whether or not there is a good reason (in this case there is). But you get to a point where holding the grudge is just a waste of energy. I'm not saying "get over it" or anything but i am saying look at it from both sides. And if you want to blame someone for what happened in WWII don't blame the current generation, blame those who were actually responsible for it. Two Cents

Thanks everyone, especialy VPRGUY, all of you have made me think of both sides of the story instead of one side. And you are right falconfixer860261, the news media gives a lot of BS sometimes. I went to Japan just last summer and the people there were actually real nice and there was this lady who helped me get around places too. And at that time i lost the grudge. But then, the news media popped out again and had another story about Japan and China's issue, therefore, it got my grudge going again. But thanx guys, I'm not surprised that you guys would be able to help me cause you probably have a lot more experience in life then I do. BTW I'm 13 and turing 14 soon.

Glad we could all be of help dude Very Happy

Just remember you're never too old or too experienced to stop learning, and grand knowledge doesn't always come with age. Lisafer is in her teens if I remember right, and has posted a couple of really insightful, well thought out and articulated posts- something that can't be said about some others who claim to be older and more sensible. I talk a LOT on here, and have been called on things a couple times regarding stuff I thought I knew too. I just try not to let others tell me how or what to think; I'd rather figure those things out on my own. And remember, there are always at least three sides to every story Smile

Wow thanks lol didn't expect that. Smile

but that three sides of every story business is so true. the offensive, the defensive, and the people selling arms to both sides. Lol couldn't help it Razz

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Personally, I feel the subject of if "Japan should still apologize for what they've done in ww2" is a sensitive political discussion best avoided. Since the board has allowed it, I would like to provide an objective view.

While I do not wish to interpret the level of understanding from the responses, I feel it is important, the essence of the subject in discussion, is not misunderstood.

Here is an article on the surfaced question. Again, I'm sure there are impartial alternate sources to the reference made. It will be individual's interest to extend his/her research on the subject.

In a nutshell, I believe it is not about demanding a heartfelt and (intangible) sincere apology of the present generation to their forefathers' wrongdoings. It is about the objection to the falsification and distortion of the History.

In my humble opinion, History is not opened for interpretation. Atrocity is not to be falsely made justifiable.

regards,

Quote:

In a nutshell, I believe it is not about demanding a heartfelt and (intangible) sincere apology of the present generation to their forefathers' wrongdoings. It is about the objection to the falsification and distortion of the History.

In my humble opinion, History is not opened for interpretation. Atrocity is not to be falsely made justifiable.

Woah very very nicely put!! And I wouldn't say that its just in your "humble opinion" lol. There are many many essays on how distorted our History is. (Believe me, I have read a few). And as for interpretive History, there is no perfect Historical methodology due to human error. Historians nowadays do do their best though. Well at least in comparison to those in the past. (That was not an intentional pun either Razz

) And Politics will always feature in History. It has to. Look at how many historians wrote for the drawer and got killed for doing so. Having said that, the length of some of the texts I've had to read have almost killed me, but just the same, Politics and History are products of the same thing so of course they influence each other to some point. Smile

Forum: Off-topic

American relationship with China