Forum: F-22A Raptor

The YF-22 was selected over the YF-23 because it offered lower risk. Much like the P & W F-135 was choosen over the GE F-136.

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Tinito_16 wrote:

From what I have read the YF-22 was selected over the YF-23 mostly because of peripheral issues and not aircraft performance. One thing that did chew the YF-23's tail was the launch rails for the missles: these were arranged one on top of the other, and if one jammed, the plane couldn't fire the others.

....Or so the theory goes Cool

The reason why the F-22 won out over the YF-23 was because the F-22 was designed for more types of battle, and reliability. The Yf-23's jam-possible design meant that if you were in a firefight and your missle jammed, then you're going to eat missle. But don't worry, even though the F-22 won out on the YF-23, the Air Force is still in need of a long range stealth bomber, and the YF-23 fits the bill perfectly. It's designed for long-range, high altitude, maximum stealth flight, with a high capacity for weapons, and since it's already been designed, the Air Force doesn't need to make another plane, or to redesign the F-22 into the FB-22 so we may be seeing the YF-23 again soon. Does anyone agree? Cool

I was an air traffic controller at LA Center during the flight testing of the two ATF concept aircraft, and at least from my perspective, the YF-23 outperformed the YF-22 rather significantly in terms of acceleration, supercruise speeds, and top speed.

I remember vividly watching the YF-23 literally walk away from the F-15 chase aircraft during supercruise testing in the supersonic corridor NE of Edwards AFB. The F-15 pilot in max AB, while the YF-23 was at max military power. Ground speed numbers were also quite different between the two prototypes during maximum speed testing as well, with the YF-23 showing a sizable advantage over the YF-22. While this was only a portion of the capability, at least in this arena, the YF-23 was the better aircraft. While I can't remember the winds aloft at that time, I DO remember seeing ground speeds above 1800 kts from the YF-23.

Personally, I think Northrup got screwed by the Senate Armed Services Committee, with at least a fair amount of political backroom bargaining by Chairman Sam Nunn, who at the time was the senator from GA, where not surprisingly, a large portion of the F/A-22 program would be built. I also suspect that after the B-2 program was awarded to Northrup, that the Gov't didn't want to give them even more money for the ATF contract.

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

Here we go again. Without knowing any details about the program, what or how they were performing any tests, your perspective is as valid as the person saying that the YF-23 should have won because it looks "sooooo much cooler".

As long as we're throwing in anecdotal evidence...
My grandfather worked for Northrop (but in a different division) and basically said that the Air Force gave tons of breaks in terms of time limits to the F-22, extending them so that the Lockheed team could participate, which makes sense given how much they changed the design afterwards (YF-22 vs F-22A).

Guysmiley wrote:

Here we go again. Without knowing any details about the program, what or how they were performing any tests, your perspective is as valid as the person saying that the YF-23 should have won because it looks "sooooo much cooler".

Huh, so your chastising a guy who possibly had first hand knowledge of the testing for posting his observations and opinion on an internet forum? Isn't this the kind of thing that should be encouraged here? If fakaro is legit, then he was actually involved in the testing. This is alot more than can be said for any of us, so his opinion is at least as valuable.

fakaro wrote:

I was an air traffic controller at LA Center during the flight testing of the two ATF concept aircraft, and at least from my perspective, the YF-23 outperformed the YF-22 rather significantly in terms of acceleration, supercruise speeds, and top speed.

I remember vividly watching the YF-23 literally walk away from the F-15 chase aircraft during supercruise testing in the supersonic corridor NE of Edwards AFB. The F-15 pilot in max AB, while the YF-23 was at max military power. Ground speed numbers were also quite different between the two prototypes during maximum speed testing as well, with the YF-23 showing a sizable advantage over the YF-22. While this was only a portion of the capability, at least in this arena, the YF-23 was the better aircraft. While I can't remember the winds aloft at that time, I DO remember seeing ground speeds above 1800 kts from the YF-23.

Personally, I think Northrup got screwed by the Senate Armed Services Committee, with at least a fair amount of political backroom bargaining by Chairman Sam Nunn, who at the time was the senator from GA, where not surprisingly, a large portion of the F/A-22 program would be built. I also suspect that after the B-2 program was awarded to Northrup, that the Gov't didn't want to give them even more money for the ATF contract.

Well the speed of an aircraft doesn't matter if it's fighting a plane that can out maneuver it. Also, while the YF-23 was blackballed by the government, the thing was that the Raptor gave the US everything it needed in terms of stealth, cause you can't see it until your eating shrapnel, and even though the YF-23 did rival the F-22 in maneuverability, the Raptor edged out on it, which matters more if it comes to a fair fight against other fifth generation planes like the Typhoon.

To be honest most of the YF-23 fan seem to love the aircraft based on looks more than anything

Both were great designs, and if we had a ton of money perhaps we should have gotten both. The YF-22 had the advantage of thrust vectoring which Northrop decided against for increased stealth, but when the USAF made their choice they favored the somewhat more conventional YF-22.

Right now we should just focus on getting more F-22As, and perhaps hope that the F-23 design is developed into a FB-23.

biffbutkus wrote:

Guysmiley wrote:

Here we go again. Without knowing any details about the program, what or how they were performing any tests, your perspective is as valid as the person saying that the YF-23 should have won because it looks "sooooo much cooler".

Huh, so your chastising a guy who possibly had first hand knowledge of the testing for posting his observations and opinion on an internet forum? Isn't this the kind of thing that should be encouraged here? If fakaro is legit, then he was actually involved in the testing. This is alot more than can be said for any of us, so his opinion is at least as valuable.

If the guy was for real he wouldn't be shooting his mouth off like he is.

sferrin wrote:

biffbutkus wrote:

Guysmiley wrote:

Here we go again. Without knowing any details about the program, what or how they were performing any tests, your perspective is as valid as the person saying that the YF-23 should have won because it looks "sooooo much cooler".

Huh, so your chastising a guy who possibly had first hand knowledge of the testing for posting his observations and opinion on an internet forum? Isn't this the kind of thing that should be encouraged here? If fakaro is legit, then he was actually involved in the testing. This is alot more than can be said for any of us, so his opinion is at least as valuable.

If the guy was for real he wouldn't be shooting his mouth off like he is.

Shooting his mouth off?? Are you kidding?

biffbutkus wrote:

Huh, so your chastising a guy who possibly had first hand knowledge of the testing for posting his observations and opinion on an internet forum? .... If fakaro is legit, then he was actually involved in the testing. This is alot more than can be said for any of us, so his opinion is at least as valuable.

An air traffic controller from LA center is not "involved in the testing". That was G. Smiley's point. As a simple example: While he could likely get a gauge on groundspeed, he would have no idea what the aircraft power setting was, making any claims about supercruising ring more than a little suspicious.

Pretty much all the LA guys do is say "No, you may not fly through our airspace to get to the ocean". Wink

Raptor_claw wrote:

biffbutkus wrote:

Huh, so your chastising a guy who possibly had first hand knowledge of the testing for posting his observations and opinion on an internet forum? .... If fakaro is legit, then he was actually involved in the testing. This is alot more than can be said for any of us, so his opinion is at least as valuable.

An air traffic controller from LA center is not "involved in the testing". That was G. Smiley's point. As a simple example: While he could likely get a gauge on groundspeed, he would have no idea what the aircraft power setting was, making any claims about supercruising ring more than a little suspicious.

Pretty much all the LA guys do is say "No, you may not fly through our airspace to get to the ocean". Wink

If you say so...guess I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt. Just figured that he was entitled to give his opinion that's all Shrug

biffbutkus wrote:

sferrin wrote:

biffbutkus wrote:

Guysmiley wrote:

Here we go again. Without knowing any details about the program, what or how they were performing any tests, your perspective is as valid as the person saying that the YF-23 should have won because it looks "sooooo much cooler".

Huh, so your chastising a guy who possibly had first hand knowledge of the testing for posting his observations and opinion on an internet forum? Isn't this the kind of thing that should be encouraged here? If fakaro is legit, then he was actually involved in the testing. This is alot more than can be said for any of us, so his opinion is at least as valuable.

If the guy was for real he wouldn't be shooting his mouth off like he is.

Shooting his mouth off?? Are you kidding?

Divulging information that if true is obviously classified stuff? Yeah, that would qualify as "shooting your mouth off".

I don't think anyone would argue that the YF-23 was faster, and perhaps a bit stealthier. The YF-22 was more manueverable and had less risky weapons layouts, while still being very fast/stealthy. This combined with a more mature design played a large role in the decision.

wrightwing wrote:

I don't think anyone would argue that the YF-23 was faster, and perhaps a bit stealthier. The YF-22 was more manueverable and had less risky weapons layouts, while still being very fast/stealthy. This combined with a more mature design played a large role in the decision.

another thing is that the f-22 had a more familiar design overall, so pilots could adapt to it more easily and use it better in battle

Forum: F-22A Raptor

YF-22 vs YF-23