Forum: F-16 Armament & Stores

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Hey guys,

I am surfing for information on the Popeye II (Have Lite). I have not came across any articles/photos suggesting that any operational Viper is now armed with the Popeye II. Nonetheless, one article where I found the following picture states that, Turkey agreed to jointly produce the Popeye II back in 1997 and was expected to be delivered in 2000.

<a href="PhotoGallery/album04/cuy.jpg"><img src="PhotoGallery/album04/cuy.thumb.jpg" width=150 height=126></a>

Am I right to understand that, the Popeye II is intended solely for the Viper. If that is correct, by any chance, Turkey Viper is now Popeye II capable? I am amazed, the AGM never made it to the IAF Vipers. Could the JDAM commonly seen on some of the latest IAF Viper photo be the answer?

I am impressed with the statement; Multiple guidance modes and options provide lethal accuracy, allowing a building?s doorway to become a legitimate target. But the fact that, it requires a station to carry the data link pod, makes it less attractive. The pod was mounted on station 5 in the photo. But from this video, if I am not wrong, it was on station 6.

Along with the HAVE LITE, I am looking for photos of the Spice too. I remember coming across a photo of IAF Viper carrying a Spice (just for exhibition). Couldn't seem to find that photo now. Will appreciate if anyone has link to such photo.

cheers,

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There was a photo about two years back in one of the KeyMags ( AFM or FI )I forget. Showing Have Lite on an acitive duty IDF 2 seater. Don't know the quanties. ( note: at least with something like JDAM it isn't hard to get total numbers of kits delivered as it is public record )

There are some good SPICE photos on the Saab Gripen website in their photo gallery showing captive carry. It is still a relitively new weapon. I haven't seen anything that it has been certified operational. IDF doesn't do press releases like we do. Very Happy

I don't know if as you say there are any things saying JDAM will "replace" HAVE LITE. Of the 3 weapons, HAVE LITE is the only "man in the loop" where you can see the final target in your cross hairs before impact. As you mentioned this requires a datalink pod. As you may know the IR sensor on SPICE is not man-in-the loop but more of a target ID thing for the onboard system to go after the right target. But it also uses GPS/INS like JDAM.

JDAM off the three is the least complex and most bang for the buck on most fixed targets. This mix of weapons most likely solves a lot of concerns for IDF and gives them more options. If the U.S. GPS sattelites are turned off, the INS in JDAM will still be pretty darn accurate on short bomb flight times. The IR target recognition in SPICE will make up for any loss of GPS only on certain target types ( SPICE is can do longer range flight so again having GPS turned off might make the planner go for shorter flight. ) HAVE LITE same situation except the man in the loop video will be very accurate on all target types ( asssuming visibility isn't obscurred )

OT U.S. Navy only, just put out a contract to have some IR strapon noses for some of their JDAMs for target recognition.

http://www.saab.se/node5507.asp

SPICE on Gripen

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JDAM and NAVY "HART" ( kind of a goofy press release as some of the tech stuff is wrong (ignore second paragraph (not quoted) from the link below). Good description here on how IR on the SPICE and IR on USN special JDAMS would work... ( new F-18s (with HART) and IDF F-16s : System on the jet passes high res radar image along with INS to the JDAM/IR and SPICE

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/200 ... 1021m.html

Quote:

During system development and demonstration, Boeing will develop kits that would be attached to a MK-82 JDAM and convert it into a HART precision guided weapon. The HART guidance kit includes an infrared sensor, a processor, and image-matching software.

Using the Active Electronically Scanned Array radar system, a Super Hornet aircrew can acquire and designate a target and transfer a reference image of the target to the JDAM. After release, the weapon compares the reference image to that in its sensor’s field of view, guiding it to the point designated in the target scene. System development and demonstration will also include HART’s initial flight testing, weapon separation tests and evaluation of the overall system performance.

“We’re improving the accuracy of the highly successful JDAM and combining that technology with AESA to enhance the ability of F/A-18E/F to engage targets of opportunity,” said Tony Parasida, vice president, F/A-18 program, for Boeing.

JDAM can already engage "targets of opportunity" and has. Just not THIS rapidly Wink

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

hi elp, thanks for the detailed response.

Yeah, I have seen pictures of the Gripen with the whole array of Israel made asernals and sensor. Very menacing! In fact, I believe SAAB has put up a very aggressive marketing effort against the Viper.

From your reply, I gathered, the JDAM has an edge over the HAVE LITE and Spice. Not to mention, it is battle proven.

On the other hand, I am still very curious if the Turkey Vipers are operational certified with the HAVE LITE. Will be a great enjoyment to see photo of such combination. My latest search showed, the HAF is interested to arm her 52+ with the HAVE LITE too Shocked

An article features in Air Forces Monthly, 2002, states that Chilean sources have confirmed, the FACH Vipers will be equipped with the Spice.

Quote:

There was a photo about two years back in one of the KeyMags ( AFM or FI )I forget. Showing Have Lite on an acitive duty IDF 2 seater.

I guess that is the photo I have been searching to no avail. Sad

I just looked through my new Isradecal book on the Barak, and found no pics of a D model carrying Spice. There were several pics of C's carrying it though. There was, however many pics showing both C's and D's carrying GBU-15s. Just an interesting note.

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Habu,

the C carrying the Spice!!!? I got to see it myself! How much did you pay for the book, by the way?

cheers, Very Happy

Last edited by Habu on Dec 03, 2003 - 11:49 PM; edited 1 time in total

$35 retail, but there was a weekend sale, so I got it for $28 Very Happy

Gimme a few..I'll scan a couple pics..

I don't know if the JDAM has an "edge" except in maybe unit cost. The SPICE sounds like a good alternative. I'm not much into man-in-the-loop weapons like the GBU-15 or HAVE HAP/LITE yet I do like SLAM, so I guess I am inconsistant.

I do wonder if the same subcontractor(s) that worked on the IR strap on for JDAM for USNs future order ... also worked on SPICE?? The Sagem GPS/INS bomb kit ( for Rafale and Mirage 2000 ) will have an IR target recognition option also.

Good point. I believe the IDF F-16 photo showing a HAVE LITE hanging was a Barak jet, going from memory...

As for the next thing for IDF jets. And since there are almost always public releases for it on the U.S. side would be the enhanced Paveway kit. Instead of being just a regular LGB kit, this kit also has a GPS setup on it (terminal, not just mid course ). You can use it either as an LGB or a "JDAM" like attack profile. Keep your eyes open if you see any releases mentioning this. I don't know of any deals but it would seem logical that it would happen at some time. The UK used these in OIF and they work.

Care to add a little SPICE to your Barak? <---inevitable pun Laughing

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Thanks Habu!!

The Spice looks big!! I believe a 1/48 IAF Viper with the Spice will look GREAT! US$35? That is kinda expensive! Surprised

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

elp,

a quote from this article on Israel made guided bomb.

The Israelis have developed seeker kits for the standard Mark 82, 83, and 84 bombs. Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) developed a laser seeker kit known as "Guillotine", which has now been replaced by a next-generation laser seeker kit known as "Griffin". IAI has been working on a new laser seeker system named the "Advanced Laser Guided Bomb (ALGB)" with improved accuracy, which appears to be the basis for a new LGB series with the designation "Lizard".

Elbit of Israel has also introduced a seeker kit known as "Whizzard" that combines an imaging infrared fire and forget seeker with a laser seeker. Rafael also sells a glide bomb known as the "Opher" that looks like a Paveway LGB, but uses a sensitive infrared seeker to allow fire and forget attacks on armor and other targets. The Opher's seeker is said to be smart enough to ignore burning vehicles and concentrate on legitimate targets. Whether it uses the Whizzard seeker kit is unknown.

no sure how current the article is, the JDAM/HAVE LITE/Spice were not mentioned... Shocked

cheers,

What costs $35 US Des?
You talking about a model?

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

Sorry Habu,

I was referring to your Isradecal book on the Barak. =US$35?

Oh that...well you made reference to it. But yeap, that's the price of quality nowadays.

Pumpkin wrote:

elp,

a quote from this article on Israel made guided bomb.

The Israelis have developed seeker kits for the standard Mark 82, 83, and 84 bombs. Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) developed a laser seeker kit known as "Guillotine", which has now been replaced by a next-generation laser seeker kit known as "Griffin". IAI has been working on a new laser seeker system named the "Advanced Laser Guided Bomb (ALGB)" with improved accuracy, which appears to be the basis for a new LGB series with the designation "Lizard".

Elbit of Israel has also introduced a seeker kit known as "Whizzard" that combines an imaging infrared fire and forget seeker with a laser seeker. Rafael also sells a glide bomb known as the "Opher" that looks like a Paveway LGB, but uses a sensitive infrared seeker to allow fire and forget attacks on armor and other targets. The Opher's seeker is said to be smart enough to ignore burning vehicles and concentrate on legitimate targets. Whether it uses the Whizzard seeker kit is unknown.

no sure how current the article is, the JDAM/HAVE LITE/Spice were not mentioned... Shocked

cheers,

Cool. Thanks. Maybe they are working on a GPS terminal setup on those LGB kits similar to Enhanced Paveway and / or Paveway IV ? I am sure they have considered it. It at least gives you a dual use weapon abeit with the higher kit cost of an LGB and the more inspections that LGBs need by the muntions troops while in storage vs. a JDAM.

Forum: F-16 Armament & Stores

Have Lite armed Viper (OT Spice)