Forum: Program and politics

That was my concern with the F-35. According to Bunnies and Zen, I was always wondering where are you going to hang ordinance on it? The additional sorties, and it's accompanying maintainability issue, well, we have issues here. Excuse my ignorance of the aircraft, this is the first post I have made on this jet.

There was a post on new technologies vs the Raptor, how true indeed! Perhaps any negativity on this topic, is relevant! I say lets keep the program going along with the given Raptor and please never exclude block 60.

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Oh don't give me an F-35
That bitch is a ground loving whore
She'll tumble and roll and dig a deep hole
Oh don't give me an F-35

About sums up my thoughts on the Aircraft. I honestly fail to see what it's going to do for us- John Boyd must be turning in his grave.

Dammerung, if this your wish, I'll respect that. I'll be reading into the wee hours tonight about this aircraft. However, if you get anything like it out of UPT, please don't be dissapointed. Any aircraft is better than none at all.

You're quite right about that. I'd rather have a -16 or -22, but i'll certainly take it over the F/A-18 Very Happy

Hell, I'd take an A-4 over an F/A-18, at least the A-4 doesn't TRY to go supersonic!

Quote:

- Dear 'Driver': 'In the first batch we buy 75-100 and probably in the 2nd batch another 75-100', your Minister of Finance will certainly get a nerve breakdown. There will be a purchase of between 48-80 to fill 3 or 4 squadrons in the RNLAF, next year your MoD will reveal the real number.

in one perspective you are right. BUT we have the money. turst me but we are only allowd to buy 2 billion euros in militairy equipement each year. and since we always (and its been sayed jsf wont be excluded in this.) double our first order, i still stand with what i say.

The deal with the JSF is this: EU countries want an A-A machine that will dominate the battlefield for a long time to come. Some have chosen the EF2000, which is a very capable jet against a non-stealthy foe. But all of it's maneuverability and avionics won't do squat to beat something it can't see (at least not at a distance). So what do they really want? An F-22. But we're not going to sell that to anybody, at least not anytime soon. So what's the next best A-A platform in the world? The JSF. But it can also carry more weapons (unstealthy) farther than a Typhoon, and it can carry them stealthily if needed. The JSF is a Blk 60 Viper on 'roids that is stealthy - it is going to kick the sh*t out of everything except the Raptor.

The problem is what technology the US is going to let go in foreign sales. A degraded RCS F-35 is pointless. They'd be better off buying a Blk 60 or the Typhoon than that. The advantage of the JSF is the stealth, that's it. The rest of the technology can be put into cheaper weapons systems and give the same capability if the JSF isn't sold with full stealth technology. But if the JSF is offered with it, there's no other option that comes close.

yes but the UK and Many EU nations have told bush that he can shove his JSF up his a$$ (not in the exact terms but just to emphesize the idea) if he does that. and as for holland we have sayed to turn back to EFA or RAFALE

But yes that would be something for bush eventough together he has payed less on the JSF then the rest he still gets the best reveneu from it... I wouldnt be sorry to see him empeached or even locked up.

2sBlind wrote:

The deal with the JSF is this: EU countries want an A-A machine that will dominate the battlefield for a long time to come. Some have chosen the EF2000, which is a very capable jet against a non-stealthy foe. But all of it's maneuverability and avionics won't do squat to beat something it can't see (at least not at a distance). So what do they really want? An F-22. But we're not going to sell that to anybody, at least not anytime soon. So what's the next best A-A platform in the world? The JSF.

Well, it's not quite like that, the UK is committed to a joint EF-2000 (RAF) and F-35 (RN) force.

I'm quite happy with us getting the EF-2000 or F-35 over the F/A-22 (and a combination of the two is even better!). The word 'stealth' is vastly overused, it generates images of an unseen shadow travelling around the world at will, unmolested, dropping bombs on whatever it chooses, shooting down whatever it likes, well, it's not quite like that. Not even in the movies.

The UK, possibly unlike the other europeans, are not buying the JSF as an A/A platform (well, some fleet defence capability would be good). Its a replacement for the Harrier in the CAS/BAI role, and will probably acquire a full strike role too (make the most of the capability, especially when we lose the Tonka).

Safetystick wrote:

The UK, possibly unlike the other europeans, are not buying the JSF as an A/A platform (well, some fleet defence capability would be good). Its a replacement for the Harrier in the CAS/BAI role, and will probably acquire a full strike role too (make the most of the capability, especially when we lose the Tonka).

correct but if the US gives the RN a degraded version that doesnt only mean in AA perspective.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you, and certainly not saying that we (UK) would accept a degraded version. Hell, unless the UK buy some smart twin store carriers the JSF can't carry anymore Paveway IV than the GR 9 (six in both cases), less Mavericks (six vs four), less Brimstones (more so if internal carriage of brimstone is never cleared) or AMRAAM/ASRAAM than the Sea Harrier (well, two more. 6 - 2 fuselage, 2 on each outboard pylon dual rail - for the SHAR, 8 for the JSF).

On the plus side the JSF can carry four Storm Shadows whilst the poor old Harrier could manage only two in theory!

So, if the JSF doesn't offer an increase in carriage (and, believe me, I want the Uk to buy smart TSC Smile

) then the justification for buying the JSF has to be its sensors and its survivability ('stealth' if you will). A glorified Sea Harrier with GR 9 wing and better legs is not going to justify the reduction in fleet numbers, nor the money and research we handed the 'merkin's!

well actually on the interior a JSF can take 4 AA weapons or 2 AA weapons and 2 AG weapons (max is a 200lb bomb) externally there are six hardpoints 4 can take Feul tanks (480 gal. considering that the JSF can already go VERY! far thats alot) and all six can take ANY ag weapons and ANY AA weapons, at this point theyre experimenting with tri recks for AG bombs and missles and Dual recks for AA weapons

that still gives it a top AA loadout of 12 missiles.... which may be seen as sufficient combat persistance compare to current AA aircraft (F-15, F-16, Tornado F3) however in the UK's case it is still less than what a Typhoon is packing... a max AA loadout of 14 missiles (8 AMRAAM/METEOR, 6 ASRAAM/IRIS-T + a centerline tank). And if you think about it... do any of the countries the allied coallition would face in the future carry stealth aircraft themselves??? Apart from "stealth" it packs nearly all the same "tricks" as the Raptor and then some more... as the F-22 doesn't have an IRST capability allowing for identification and tracking of targets up to 35miles away with 0 radar emissions or AWACS support on either side. The chances of their being another major power-on-power war are diminishing; as Donald Rummsfeld has said himself, the military of all nations needs to move AWAY from power-v-power capability and more towards dealing with terrorist-type operations. Stealth isn't the be all and end all... remember when the B-2 was first doing the airshow scene?

Well foreign militarys just pointed and laughed at the reps when they said it was completely undetectable... A) The Rapier SAM system, locked one up during a fly past. B) When it rained... it was proved to have a bigger radar signature than the B-52!!! They've now fixed the rain problem but the fact that systems like the Rapier (which uses a combo of radar and IRST technology to evade SEAD) can still lock one up at 20miles... so much for stealth.

Boff - To be fair to the B-2, the Rapier is effectivly getting a point blank shot. The B-2 is bouncing a lot of radar energy away from the receiver but there is enough to get a lock on (I.m ignoring any devices that the B-2 may be fitted with to prevent giving a good RCS estimate in these conditions). In real life the B-2 would be flying a course designed to keep it out of detection range of the local SAM threat. Its concern would be SAM that have not previously emmited and thus been plotted by an ELINT platform.

Driver, cheers. I was led to believe that only four of the six pylons were A/G rated but I could be(and possibly am) wrong! If the outboard ones are too then that improves the loadout vs Harrier but only by two PWIV!

The bay is a bit of a bugger for us brits. It been optimised for an AIM-120 and a 2000lb JDAM where we could do with one with a bit more space for a Meteor and a touch wider to squeeze two PWIV in!

Forum: Program and politics

Overall perspective of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter