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Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1004 Status: Offline

Viperalltheway wrote:

Entropy wrote:

Maybe not WELL over mach 2. But WELL over mach1 for sure. No one "knows" the 22s top speed. So you'll have to ask someone who has been around it. That's assuming that they'll tell you.

In fact I was asking the question to TC, since he seems to be involved with the F-22.

I am not involved with the F-22 but I CAN pass on a quote from a pilot who is. It was from a couple years ago but the pilot said they'd exceeded Mach 1.7 and they were not even at maximum military power. No this isn't the Jumper quote.

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i just finished an interesting book about the F-15E in operation Iraqi freedom. One of the things in it that really caught my attention was that because of the patriots blue on blue they flew with thier mode 2 IFF gear on and the Iraqis were able to TRACK them by this gear.
I would also like to point out that during the vietnam war the US was able to track North Vietnamese fighters by interogating thier IFF gear.
So if we could do it thirty years ago and the Iraqis could do it two years ago what makes you think the Chinese can't do it now?
Also when the F-4 phantom was introduced everybody thougt that the Sparrow would make visual range fights a thing of the past. We all know how that turned out.
In the end it will come down to how well the enemy trains it's IADS people and how well we train ours.
I don't think the F-22 is going to do any where close to what a lot of people seem to think it will do.
Bang Head

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1004 Status: Offline

Jokerblue wrote:

Ah, yes, assuming the AMRAAM is fired on an update mode, wouldn't the Raptor be radiating when it updates the AMRAAM? Would it be vulnerable then? Or is the AMRAAM updated periodically in pulses to reduce probability of detection? I'm not too clear on the way the AMRAAM is updated, so forgive my ignorance Smile

It would probably depend on several things. How much info needs to be sent? How often does it need an update? How smart is the AIM-120? Conceivably you could give it an initial position and course at launch and give it a couple updates as simple as x,y,z (position) V (velocity) and <,<,< (direction of target flight). What is that maybe a hundred bytes? How long does it take to bleep that over a wireless network? Depending on the target's flight path (keeping in mind the AIM-120 hasn't gone active so the target is most likely unaware that it IS a target) odds are that it's straight and level. You're emissions could be as simple as a fraction-of-a-second *bleep* or two before it goes active. Add to that the *bleeps* don't necessarily have to come from the SAME F-22. OR maybe each transmission is *bleep*, *bleep* and it factors in the differences too. The point is VERY little information needs to be sent. An opposing fighter is going to have a tough time doing anything useful with those couple *bleeps* and THAT'S assuming it even detects them.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1004 Status: Offline

ACSheva wrote:

Quote:

How do *you* know it will be detected by RWR when the radar is on?

How do you know it wont. When you fire a missile of any sort youre location is revealed.

Sheva

Only if somebody is looking. If the F-22 has his way he's not going to be shooting at you head on. Why? Your radar points forward and could detect the AIM-120 (though at nothing like the range you could detect an aircraft). So he shoots it at you from the side or the rear. Are you going to have someone on the ground scanning all sections of the sky 24/7 on the lookout for AIM-120s? Are they going to be able to contact you in time to do anything about it?

Enthusiast Joined: Jan 13, 2005 Posts: 84 Status: Offline

What the F-22 really needs is a bloody long ranged air to air missile. Like the one they used to have on the tomcat, phinix or something like that. I think the F-22 will need to make better use of its first sight advantage.

We could always purchase Meteor from Europe, but I think the AIM-120D will suffice.

It doesn't need a super long range AAM b/c it can so close without being detected. It even has the capability to launch without turning it's radar on, using either passive detection or off-board detection like an AWACS or another F-22.

As far as the IFF thing goes... you just turn it off, and it's not a factor. With the data links we have now, it won't even be needed, not to mention how are they going to be worried about friendly fire if nobody can see it, including us.

I was informed of an AIM-120R somewheres. Any one know of this? Isn't it long range?

It could be a Ramjet powered version of the AMRAAM, but that's just a guess. As for the long range missiles nzenthusiast and I discussed, they might not be necessary now, but they could serve later in prolonging the Raptor's service-life.

2sBlind wrote:

It doesn't need a super long range AAM b/c it can so close without being detected. It even has the capability to launch without turning it's radar on, using either passive detection or off-board detection like an AWACS or another F-22.

I agree 2sBlind, right now the Raptor does`nt need a long bat! Robert Shaw, former USN pilot says that it is relatively easy to out manoeuvre any missile at long range because of its lack of energy with its motor burnt out.
This is different with the Raptor, it can release it`s AMRAAMS at high altitude and at high speed giving it much more energy.

Is`nt the AIM-120R a misnomer for Raytheons proposed FMRAAM? A ramjet powered long range AAM. The latest AMRAAM is the `120C-7. The 120-D is a planned upgrade.

On a side note, does anybody think in close combat, the F-22 will be just as vulnerable as any aircraft to say, a MIG-21 with Israeli Python 5 IR missiles and a helmet sight? Or a MIG-29 OVT with the same kit?
Of course the F-22 does`nt WANT to get that close,. everything it has on-board is geared to fight at distance, it`s greatest advantage.

The Aim-120R was a proposed Ramjet version aimed specifically at Europe... in particular the UK as part of the competition to find our next BVR AAM... the requirement for this was a missile with significantly more range than the current AMRAAM/Sky Flash versions in service....

The program lost out as the Meteor was selected instead of it....

Thats the last I heard of the Aim-120R.

Andy

The AIM 120R, or what it may have become known was the FRAAM project proposed by Raytheon. I knew it was offered to the UK, like Boff said, we chose Meteor.
There is some life left in the program though, see this thread....

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-3625.html

F-16.net Editor Joined: Sep 23, 2003 Posts: 2847

A lot of cart before the horse here and also legacy air to air thinking. Yes, many things in A2A do not change because of new technology. However, F-22 makes some of the top two or three rules in air tactics more doable.

One being is seeing the other guy before he sees you. The next, being able to set up an attack. After that survivablity. Where.... your survivability issues as an F-22 person are not as naked and severe as that of a legacy aircraft.

Finally... More times than not, we attack first. Given that, the mail is going to get through any legacy style air defense system and with or without the biggest-best legacy jet that puts on the best airshow, or the latest SAM tech that will be beyond its ability to defend a wide geographic area, because stealth creates so many holes ( most 3D not 2D holes ).... JDAMs will cut intersections of runways, Doors will be kicked down and paths cleared ( SEAD / DEAD )... and even more families of PGMS will get through and start breaking down an integrated defense system. F-22 is not everything. F-22 is one of the final key players that was needed as a special team player. Again, we can do all of this .......NOW.... on a scale of spending that doesn't put us in a bad way, and start down a path of sane spending....if only we could shead the big spenders in congress and the DOD.

To add a little to elp's post. Air Combat doctorine needs a complete revision due to the Raptor's capabilities. All Raptor pilots , but especially the 422 TES at Nellis are finding that the aircraft can be used in ways never thought of before because the capability(s) were never available in a single fighter aircraft type. Writing the tactics book for the Raptor is by far not finished and will continue throughout the life of the airframe because as software and hardware upgrades becomes available, so too will new capabilities. So everything what you have possibly seen, read, or heard about the Raptor is just the beginning. It'll just keep getting better and better (and worse and worse for future potential adversaries).

And you can bet that our adversaries are going to do their best to steal any info they can get about the raptor and used it to devise counters.
I can already think of several ways that the raptor can be beaten. And I'm just a historian!

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Is the F-22 really that good?