Forum: Air Power

Many poeple believe this..If this is true than how the hell the Mirage III have been pounded by Sea harrier? can anyone tell me ?I need an expert opinion on the subject

<<The French made R550 is/was a better close in Missile than the AIM9L. The R550 autoscan lock ability was awesome in comparison the AIM9L mechanisation in the Sea Harrier at the timThe R550 is/was a better close in Missile than the AIM9L. The R550 autoscan lock ability was awesome in comparison the AIM9L mechanisation in the Sea Harrier at the time of the of the conflict in the Falkland<<

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I believe the text you quoted describes the R 550 Magic II (2) which indeed has better characteristics than the AIM-9L. But this version only entered service in 1988 with AdA (Armee de l'Air = French AF) and subsequently was also exported.

Anyway, Argentina had (and still has) only the older R 550 Magic I (1) which is roughly comparable with the AIM-9 G or J.

I have been told this time and time again...

The Harrier was a success in the Falklands because of superior tactics/training. The RN and RAF pilots put their aircraft into the best possible positions to gain maximum tactical advantage. The pilots knew what their Harriers could and could not do.
The Harrier is a formidable opponent close in at low and medium altitudes. The Argentinian pilots were considered excellent pilots but lacked in tactics. The Mirages had to go low to medium altitude to remove the Harrier from the skies.
The AAF HAD to destroy the RNs air cover. The Excocet carrying SUE`s were the biggest threat to the task force, not the air superiority Mirage.

The Argentinian air force fighters also suffered from lack of gas, far out from their home bases. They didn`t have the gas or time to lure the Harriers up to higher altitude where they had the decisive advantage.

Don`t forget folks, the UK Harrier pilots had years of the best training along with NATO forces, including extensive exercises with USN carrier battle groups to counter the Soviet threat. The aircrew were the best in their peer group. There were, and still are some very talented pilots flying UK harriers.

The best missiles and fighters are no guarantee of success when faced with a more experienced, better trained and more tactically aware foe. The AIM9L was THE latest sidewinder model, with frontal aspect capability. The Harrier also had a good radar.
America played a not too public but CLOSE role in the conflict as well. The UK forces were supplied with AIM 9L, SHRIKE and LGBs, night vision gear , INTEL-satellite, SIGNALS, COMMINT. This was in addition to the UKs own efforts with the Nimrod R1 and other aircraft.

The facts and no bull figures bear all of this out. Around 30 air to air kills for NO losses. Enough said. Wink

<<The RN and RAF pilots put their aircraft into the best possible positions to gain maximum tactical advantage. The pilots knew what their Harriers could and could not do

Thanks Snypa777..

Yes,this must have been the case...Under normal circumstances,Harriers wouldn't stand a chance against Mirage according to the link below..A discussion between Mirage and Harrier pilot.

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb ... 000056;p=0

Duplex, yep. It is down to the guy in the seat.

Interestingly, the Harrier pilots didn`t think much of their chances against the Mirage prior to the conflict. This was especially true of the naval commanders. A few pilots, like "Sharkey" Ward, thought they would do ok.

http://www.combatsim.com/memb123/archiv ... 5_shar.htm

The above link shows an extract from Sharkey Wards book. It details a Harrier versus F-5E Aggressor squadron showdown. The Harrier gained an almost 3:1 kill ratio in that exercise. Also an F-15 versus Harrier duel.

The Harrier pilots came out victors against the F-15 with a 7:1 kill ratio. Again, the Harrier pilots played to their strengths, luring the Eagles down to low level for the fight.
I know these were only exercises but it may give you an insight into how the Harrier did what it did in the Falklands.

Hi guys

snypa, you're 100% right, but I want to add some info:

The Argentine pilots (years before the conflict) had trained - some in France, others in Israel - but in their majority on the ground and therefore, when the war began, they discovered that on the water they were much more vulnerable, since they had not been prepared to fight in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. For that reason, when making the attacks to the British ships, the pilots chose to fly over the islands, to apply what they had learned in their training: low fly-by, avoiding the undulations of the land, to be not detected by the ships or the Harriers. Often it worked, since the patrols of Harriers that were deployed from the aircraft carriers (HMS Hermes or HMS Invincible) could not detect them. Nevertheless, sometimes it happened that the Harriers detected them and, as the argentine aircrafts were not prepared for the Air-to-Air combat (because they were fully loaded with bombs and fuel tanks), they were shooted down by the UK pilots.

In addition - as snypa said - the British counted with the AIM-9L Sidewinder (better than the R550 Magic I or Shafrir missiles), and a great support of the U.S.A., as much in armament, as in communications and provisions.

Cheers

An Argentinian officer said that Mirages and Skyhawks could not defend themselves properly, because they had no RWRs. Is this true? If true, this could be an explanation of the 'poor Argentinian airborn tactics' in combination with lack of fuel. Also the AAF was not involved in the planning of 'Liberacion Malvinas' (nick name), this was mostly or entirely done by the navy.

locum wrote:

An Argentinian officer said that Mirages and Skyhawks could not defend themselves properly, because they had no RWRs

I don't remember if they had RWRs or not, but that's an excuse only in the case of SAMs, Harriers had only infrared guided missiles (AIM-9L) and guns at that time, so radar lock-on wasn't needed.

locum wrote:

An Argentinian officer said that Mirages and Skyhawks could not defend themselves properly, because they had no RWRs. Is this true? If true, this could be an explanation of the 'poor Argentinian airborn tactics' in combination with lack of fuel. Also the AAF was not involved in the planning of 'Liberacion Malvinas' (nick name), this was mostly or entirely done by the navy.

locum, are you talking about the "Operación Rosario", right??? In that case, you're right. The AAF was not involved in it. Argentinian Navy and Army realized the invasion plan, and it was a successful plan, but with one KIA, the Cpt. Pedro Giachino.

Yes Ryan, I wrote about Operación Rosario. RoAF, a RWR is also usefull in A2A, even in WVR. It gives you more situation awareness if the SHAR driver uses it's radar to detect, track you or for missile/ gun fire control.

This is an incredible extensive topic to discuss in a few sentences, but I firmly believe that the Sea Harriers did what they did in the air to air role ONLY because the USA supplied the RN with
the Sidewinder AIM-9L from what I recall from the events at the time. This missile's ability to effectively engage another plane head on was in my opinion one of the the key aspects of that war.
The Sea Harriers were nicknamed by the Argentinians "La Muerte Negra" or the Black Death because of the new capability of the Sea Hariers and the dark grey colour that was applied in transit to the theatre of operations.
There are a few books in the market that cover the conflic very well, and I personally have a few and also newspaper clippings of the period.

Regards

F16VIPER

Hi to all!. First let´s make clear some facts, first one, it is true that the Brits were given AIM-9L Sidewinders. Second, the 32-0 kill ratio against the Mirages is pure science fiction, the kill ratio was 28-1 but this included planes such these: Pucarás, A-4B/C/Q Skyhawks, IAI Daggers and Mirage IIIEA, plus some helos. The kill ratio against the MirageIII EA was 2-0, and thus, because the Mirages flew with only 7 minutes of fuel for air combat, without using the afterburner, and more specifically, on that first encounter, tha ground control failed to warn the Mirages pilots that there were 2 Sea Harriers out there, he told the pilots about only one. Third, the pics shown on this topic are for IAI Fingers, not Mirages III EA, the Finger is an improved version of the IAI Dagger used on the Malvinas/Falklands War, it has the same electronic systems of the Kfir C-2. None Super Etendard was shot down, but they were responsible for the sunk of the HMS Sheffield, Atlantic Conveyor and hit the HMS Invincible although the Brits denie this fact...Fourth, the Sea Harrier proved to be a very unreliable plane, after the war, more than the half part of the entire fleet was lost due to several accidents, only 5 Mirages were lost for the same reasons in tghe same period, the same goes for the super etendards and Skyhawks......If you have more questions I will answer...you welcome..

Last edited by F16VIPER on Jun 25, 2006 - 08:22 AM; edited 1 time in total

Hola Pucara70:

Just one more comment, From what I understand the use of the Super Etendards with the AM-39 Anti-ship missiles was also critical in shaping the Air War in the Malvinas/Falklands.

I also want to mention my admiration for the brave Argentinian pilots that fought in that war. I think that the British Forces were lucky a few of those bombs did not explode, otherwise more ships would had been sunk.

Do you know anything about those Peruvian Air Force Mirage 5Ps that arrived in Argentina after the war.

Regards

F16VIPER wrote:

Hola Pucara70:

Greetings from a Peruvian.
Just one more comment, From what I understand the use of the Super Etendards with the AM-39 Anti-ship missiles was also critical in shaping the Air War in the Malvinas/Falklands.

I also want to mention my admiration for the brave Argentinian pilots that fought in that war. I think that the British Forces were lucky a few of those bombs did not explode, otherwise more ships would had been sunk.

Do you know anything about those Peruvian Air Force Mirage 5Ps that arrived in Argentina after the war.

Regards

Saludos amigo peruano!!!:
In first place Viper, all the Argentine nation gives to Peru many thanks for the assistance during the war. In fact, those Mirages 5P are called now Mirages5 Maras ( the Mara is the patagonic hare), they were put the former Daggers´nose cones and received RWR, flares and chaff dispensers and better electronics.....Viva Argentina, Viva el Perú......

Forum: Air Power

Aerial Combat during Falkland Campaign 1982