Forum: F-22A Raptor

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

guys,

there has been some enthusiastic discussion about the Raptor in the thread, F-22 maneuverability. I'm writing to make a few response to some replies.

I will quote TC's words. Correct me if I am wrong, most if not all share his sentiments, as I do not see any argument surfaced from the following quotes. TC, I hope I did not extract out of context.

TC wrote:

Refer to my above post: I again won't disclose the Raptor's true RCS, but suffice it to say that it will NEVER be detected, not by radar, not by ECM...nothing.

I briefly mentioned the notion of the F/A-22 Vs Silent Sentry in this thread, Four F-16s vs one F/A-22 , when the thread started to advocate the Raptor is invisible.

As much as I am curious to know the studies of the F/A-22 against PCL technologies, I would not ask to discuss it here. Nonetheless, my objective is to provide some food for thought, for the mentioned of 'NEVER' and 'nothing' is a very bold, quantifiable statement that leave no rooms for an alternate suggestion.

TC wrote:

I've found nothing to convince me that anything will take out a Raptor in the air. It'll get high enough out of the range of any AAA or SAM.

Again, I do not intend to challenge the statement and ask for the operating ceiling of the Raptor, for SR-71 holds the never shot down record & the latter parameter is classified.

S-300PMU2 advertised a kill range of ~27 to 30m. If anyone working on the Raptor confidently state the Raptor can outrange the SAM (any SAM to be exact), I will buy it.

In a nut shell, an hypothesis setup; PLAAF PCL combi with S-300PMU

In Air-to-air arena, there has been mentioned of exercises, testing the capability of Raptor to handle F-16 and F-15 in outnumbered senarios of late. My humble, educated guess is, someone is to justify 175 F/A-22 is able to replace the existing F-15 fleet. The results have been more than satisfying. To date, before a bi-static FCR is fielded, I believe the Raptor potentially commands air supremacy. I sure hope the $350 million+ fighter can hold the lead. (pardon me if the figures are incorrect)

I would reiterate. My intention is not to agitate the Raptor belivers. I would like to open a gentleman discussion, if any much of the Raptor can be discussed openly. Most importantly to ponder the thought of F/A-22 invincibility.

cheers,

F-16.net Sponsor

It's actually $130 mil per jet, but no, you didn't take my previous statements out of context. I also appreciate that very much. Very Happy

We've come to the point, where at least in the time being, the Raptor will merely supplement the F-15 program, not replace it completely. This, due to the heavily reduced numbers planned for the Raptor fleet. I envision many Guard and/or Reserve units in the near future equipping themselves with F-15Cs and Ds.

As for its survivability in combat, I will again say that you can't shoot what you can't see. I again won't disclose the Raptor's true RCS, but it is lower than the 117. The 117 has a very low RCS, but the Raptor's RCS is lower than it.

I noticed some very misinformed soul on another thread said that missile shots will give the Raptor's position away. This is absolutely untrue. The weapons bay doors, like the 117's are designed to break up radar signature. Even if it didn't, they open and close so quickly, the enemy's radar lock would again be broken because of a weak (or no) signal.

The combination of the Raptor's speed, altitude, and low RCS will carry it away from any ground threat before they can even attempt to track it.

I've mentioned on some other threads, that Wild Weasel Vipers will also benefit, not only the Raptor, but other aircraft, as they will go in early, and take out SAM or AAA threats in the immediate target area, and near IP and exit points from the target area.

I stand by my previous statement that I have seen nothing thus far that would make me worry about any combat vulnerabilities of the Raptor. My Two Cents

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

TC wrote:

Refer to my above post: I again won't disclose the Raptor's true RCS, but suffice it to say that it will NEVER be detected, not by radar, not by ECM...nothing.

Well, my view to TC’s above comment was posted before. I am skeptical. I don’t doubt TC’s first hand experience has taught him something that we don’t know and I can see he cannot elaborate much on his views (I know this must be very frustrating for TC!!). I’m sure if he could speak freely he would convince us all. I, on the other hand, without saying he is wrong, I’m forced to come to my conclusions without his knowledge. I’m sure it is OK with TC if I don’t see eye to eye with him Wink

, plus, it always makes for a more interesting topic! When it comes to this argument, I have far less credentials than TC.

The context TC’s words make sense to me (rightfully or wrongly) is not for any scenario, rather, given potential threats and current military doctrine to counter these. Strategically, I don’t think the F-22 will change much the way the US fights its wars. The opening scenes will probably still include hitting radar sites and any other threat to allied aircraft, rather than sending F-22s with full impunity.

Pumpkin, what is PLC?

TC, is the F-22 stealthier than the F-117?

Quote:

TC, is the F-22 stealthier than the F-117?

Sorry, you already answer this one!

So yes the stealth of the F 22 is surely better than the 15 year old F117-B2, thus giving it a very low RCS. I agree 108%. But wouldnt the enemys radars also improve over time? Or is the the current Raptor way ahead of the system? Thanks

ACSheva

The radars may improve, but how? The same principles still apply and the means of attaining low observability should remain viable. I hold no security clearance and all of my understanding comes from non classified sources. There's probably a few new tricks in the Raptor's bag, but the way I understand it, low RCS comes from Radar Absorbing Material (RAM) and shaping the aircraft so that most energy is directed away from the transmitting antenna. I can think of a few ways to defeat the latter, but I'm not about to start airing those in an open forum Wink

.

So how would one improve a radar? The only ways I could think of would be to increase the transmitting power or to change the wavelength of the RF energy emitted. The first would merely advertise the radar's location and the second would affect the precision and range of the radar. That's my understanding, if someone could provide a non-classified basic explanation of why changing the radar's frequency would impair performance, it would be great!

Shev, I don't doubt for a minute that the USAF has tested the Raptor against just about every type of radar in the world and found the results satisfactory. The thing I don't understand (and I know it's classified) is how the Raptor's radar can transmit and recieve through the radome, yet enemy radar can't see the Raptor's antenna???

Something else in the Raptor's favor is the fact that it has the newest technology in datalinks. This means that it never has to bring its radar out of standby as long as there's an alternate source of data on nearby aircraft in order to ripple off a few AMRAAMs Devil

!

So basically, I don't see how it can be hit by current or near-future technology. I don't doubt that someone somewhere will eventually find a way to detect and even track the Raptor. History has shown us that technology is unstoppable in its advancement. I just think this won't happen for a very long time Smile

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Last edited by swanee on Apr 18, 2005 - 05:23 AM; edited 1 time in total

heres one just to throw in the mix... so if the airframe absorbs or deflects radar signal why not just devise a program that uses radar and looks for the "holes"? Wink

swanee wrote:

heres one just to throw in the mix... so if the airframe absorbs or deflects radar signal why not just devise a program that uses radar and looks for the "holes"?

Hi swanee, if I understood correctly, the sky would have to wrapped in tin-foil Smile

Did I miss your point?

yeah, i forgot to add the joke wink... Slap

(it just isnt funny, but hindsight..20-20) but hey, im sure reyolds wrap would love a defense contract for a tin-foil cannon that can cover the airspace... Wink

---got it that time

Quote:

Shev, I don't doubt for a minute that the USAF has tested the Raptor against just about every type of radar in the world and found the results satisfactory.

I agree 190% with you there pal.

ACSheva

swanee wrote:

but hey, im sure reyolds wrap would love a defense contract for a tin-foil cannon that can cover the airspace... Wink

---got it that time

Sorry to take the fun out of the first one, but your second joke is better!

Pumpkin, another question. What is special about bi-static radars, can't current radar systems act as emitting or recieving stations, regardless of whom is emitting?

Eh, my 2 cents. (I really need to stop being lazy and look up the other icons some day :p )

Its not enough to just say you have to detect an Raptor though also. Whlie stealth is the greatest asset and best defense for the F-22's role as an air superiority fighter, it is certainly not its only strength. We have already discussed on another thread that the F-22 has enough maneuverability to handle itself in a knife fight, but outside of that, detection allone still cant help one in downing a raptor. You would also have to hope that the F-22 is in your range, and that you are not in the F-22's range, or the F-22 pilot is not aware of you before you have detected him. I would say that in addition to strong supporters of the F-22, you will also find strong supporters of the AIM-120 and the F-22's avionics.

Talking to a friend who just finished AFIT and studied the F-22 a bit... He said that the F-22 is able to provide more information to the pilot than ever before. And thats not enough because the pilot has to be able to process it. So its presented in such an organized and easy way to understand... He said that driving an F-16 is like driving a stick shift for the first time. Your mind is not out in about in the world around you. Your sole concentration is on the clutch, shift and accelerator. You are not worried about anything except stalling from one gear to the next. Driving an F-22 on the other hand, is like the going way the opposite direction. Forget automatic, its like the car controls half its functions for you. Lets say all you have to do is stear and the car can automatically detect what velocity you need to be at or something. So the only thing your mind has to be focused on is which direction your pointed. Not only can you drive but you can talk on your cell phone, drink your coffee, wink at the blonde in the Miada next to you, hush your children in the back seat, play with the air freshener around your mirror, and shut the glove box you broke that doesnt stay closed anymore, all while only keeping one hand on the wheel and still paying attention to traffic. So I'd say the avionics package holds more than its own too.

And then, in the case that you do get in a knife fight... neglecting any skill the pilot adds to the fight.... The opposing plane still needs to be more maneuverable than the F-22, have a better starting position (relevant to the avionics) and have a competitive missle to the AIM-9X (which is becoming more and more common but when you consider all factors it is rating higher and higher) all the while STILL needing to be able to detect it.

Theres one last thing we need to keep in mind, imo... When was the last time an F-15 when mono e mono with a Mig? No other air craft out there, no AWACs, nothing. No tactics were evolved for the fight regaurding other accessories.... I think a lot of people would argue that the SU-27 is equal if not supperior to the F-15, and that the Mig-29 was also a very competitive aircraft to the F-16 and F-15 both... But why has the Mig-29 been shot down and not the F-15? Great tactics, training, and the use of AWACS and other accessories to combat.....

Theres also other things to consider that just make the F-22 a great fight but may not neccessarily contribute to its combat. For one, it has a larger envelope range at faster speeds because of sonic cruise, so it can get to where it needs to go quickly should it need to... Also I have heard the maintanance kit on the F-22 is exceptional meaning that crew chiefs will be able to keep them in the air longer and get them up faster than aircraft to day. In the F-22 vs. the SU-35, it doesnt matter who has better what if the SU-35 couldnt get there cause it sat in the shop broken Smile

Anyways, to any doubters, or anyone for that matter, im more than surly convinced that the next air engagement the US is in the F-22's will be the first on the line. Air Force generals are going to need a demonstration to congress to show them what all our tax dollars went to! Theres no doubt the F-22's biggest controversy is its price tag! So hopefully, and unhopefully (that the US wont have to goto war soon) we will know soon enough!

-Aaron

You have hit pretty much every nail on the head. Actually, every question I was going to respond to, you went ahead and answered, so thanks Tengu. You saved me some work! This Bud's For You! Beer

I like the car analogy very much. I'll have to use that one sometime.

Something else to think about in that situation is that while the Raptor driver only has to worry about a couple things, namely, his position in the flight/strike force, his current location, and getting the aircraft to and from the target area on time, that Fulcrum or Flanker driver has to have his head down in the cockpit, while constantly looking up and scanning the sky for threats, and talking with his wingmen.

The 22's datalink eliminates a lot of cockpit chatter. Each plane in the flight, can in effect "see" what the other jet is seeing. Now, the radio lines won't be jammed with unimportant stuff. Everybody knows what's going on. Everybody is singing off of the same sheet of music.

About improvements in enemy radar, it really wouldn't do any good. With stronger radar comes a point of diminishing returns. For example, I could have the most powerful radar in the world. Now, if I take that radar signal, and jack it up as high as it could go, I'd be putting out a signature that would look like the Great Chicago Fire on somebody's scope. Guess who I'd have to be dealing with shortly thereafter?

Yep, you guessed it! Wild Weasels!

I want to be on the business end of a Wild Weasel about as badly as I want to be on the business end of a Raptor. Rolling Eyes

Seriously though, with the Raptor's RCS, there really is nothing they could do to paint the jet.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Not entirely true. The 15 *can* lock up a 22. Granted, its pretty damn close to visual, but it can be done.

Calhoun, does that also meen that Eagles can lock F-117s regularly? Not trying to question you, I've just never heard this information before... Im assuming all the ranges are classified but that surprises me because I would have thought we'd have gone out of our way to even make sure our own fighters couldnt lock it...

I knew the AGP-63 was a strong radar with some great capabilities but I always thought that it was also aging and even hard to replace damaged ones anymore. (Not that that's saying anything about its abilities, but about its age...!)

A little off topic (but I promise it will tie in later pending on the information) but whats the AGP-63 compare to foreign radars in use right now? Or is it just hard to say cause radar ranges etc... are very top secret...?

-Aaron

Forum: F-22A Raptor

F/A-22's invincibility