Forum: Air Power

This is a video in two parts of the Russian Sukhoi SU-35/37. Don't turn it off when the first part ends, wait for the second part.

You get to see the "Cobra" maneuver several times. Takes 6 1/2 minutes to view the entire thing.

http://bemil.chosun.com/movie%20link/SU-35.wmv

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hey,
OK if you think about it how many platforms is India running, they probley have 5 platforms already ( Russian, french, etc) imagine if they had another platform added like the US one, it would be a maintenance nightmare if you ask me. so its just better to stick with Russian made jets or even french ones.

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they probley have 5 platforms already ( Russian, french, etc)

They have 6 types currently (MiG-21, 23/27, 29, Su-30, Jaguar, Mirage 2000) and will get the LCA soon, so it will be 7 types.

The new indian MRCS programm is not intended to replace the Mig-21s.

The combat aircraft of India can be divided in four major groups:

Attack aircraft: some 120 Jaguars with more to come and some 150 Mig-27 upgraded to Mig-27M

"Heavy" fighter (multirole): 50 Su-30MKI plus 140 to be built in India

Medium fighter: some 150 Mig-23, 50 Mirage2000 and 70 Mig-29.

=> the MRCA program for 126 new aircraft will replace the Mig-23 and older Mig-29 (Contenders are Mirage2000 (perhaps France will offer Rafale), Mig-29M, F-16 (even Block 60) and perhaps F/A-18.)

Light fighter : some 120 upgraded Mig-21/93, Many older Mig-21

=> the HAL Tejas (LCA) will replace the older Mig-21

So the new aircraft has not much to do with Mig-21 or Su-30.

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

Hi to everybody!

what strikes me the most with the current composition and the intends fo IndianAF is the overlapping capabilities of this multitude of a/c types from different countries of origin (a few of everything from everyone). Multiple large scale acquisition programms instead of resuting in a healthy airospace/avionics industrial base have instead resulted in a multitude of types from four distinct manufacturing "schools" with little or no compatibility of necesary support structures.

The only rational move for InAF should it like to further modernise whould be to extend the Flanker aqcuisition programm with the current more capable multirole verisions. The required number of airframes (126) and the existing local assembly line, whould make modifications and compatibility enhancements to its specific needs fairly easy with the cooperation of the cash-starved Russian aircraft industry, retaining at same time an enhanced ability for maintaining and upgrading the fleet indefinately in the future. In addition its political power to affect Su27 derivative development whould increase. If they are not happy with the Su why did they extend the initial acquisition plan?

Su27 derivatives may be in a different class from the types the new programm is to replace however it is considerably cheaper than western types, especially when taking into account the existing support infrastructure for the Su and the non-existing infrastructure for US types.
The only reason InAF whould buy F18's for, is political, that is for rewarding US for its support in India's nuclear programm.

In practice it will result in further headaches for Indian military who are already oblidged to maintain a extremelly disparate fleet whith no operational design in a/c type mix whatsoever and scary long term maintenance costs. I do not know whether Inda has money to spare.

elias b wrote:

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Contenders are Mirage2000 (perhaps France will offer Rafale), Mig-29M, F-16 (even Block 60) and perhaps F/A-18

The Mirage 2000 is no longer a contendent. The (idle) manufacturing line was closed.

bozz, Indian procurement policy has always been to have more than one source (traditionally USSR and France) to avoid the possible difficulties in case of an embargo or political change.

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

That is true RoAF,

however an increased-number Su acquisition could give them the necessary lever to increase technology transfer. And Russia is not known to embargo military sales frequently, especially in its present economic state.

I remember Russia paying debts with Migs and Su's and Mil's to everybody until recently. India's industrial potential is huge since its workforce includes very highly trained personell both in the software as well as in the engineering fields. A pursue of a more independed industrial infrastructure is a feasible goal and eventhough the LCA programm has been a disaster (ten years overdue) it has certainly provided important experience in a/c development and manufacturing. An advancement of its mil-tech approach with Israel, that also sells arms to whoever except Arabs and has a very adaptive industrial capability whould give India an additional edge.

India wants to start treating it`s pilots better. There was recent news/rumour of discontent within the flying ranks. Ie, pilots getting posted to poor, remote locations for even suggesting they would like to fly commercial or get out of the air force...

The pilots claim they are overworked and the accommodation they get for themselves or their families when they rotate to a different location, the whole relocation package/accommodation is appalling. It is never what is promised....Does anybody know if there is any truth ion this so called discontent.

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Ie, pilots getting posted to poor, remote locations for even suggesting they would like to fly commercial or get out of the air [Link pending approval]

The pilots are soldiers and they are working in remote locations from the day India got Independence. It's not a new thing. It is said that there are areas or villages that are accessible through airports in the remote areas and the IAF provides supplies to those villages.

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Does anybody know if there is any truth ion this so called discontent.

Yes, it is reported that some guys had already left the IAF to join the Private airlines, since their pay package is very good and attractive. The Airchief has said that the number of pilots left is less than 10. So it is not such a big issue for the IAF.

The main reason for anyone joining the IAF is because he is interested to fly combat jets and his love for the motherland. They are the best talented people, who got selected from an All India exam conducted. If money is what they need, then they will not join the armed forces at all.

There was a Programme on an Indian channel and a Naval pilot is asked whether he will leave if the private players offer him more money. He said that it is job satisfaction and adventure that matters and not high paymets and he is very satisfied with his job as a fighter pilot.
Very Happy

Also the Soldiers as government servants are entitled to many benifits like Provident Fund, pension etc. Especially for fighter pilots, they can fly in any national carriers either free of charge or at a very nominal rate. And many such benifits like education for their children at good schools etc etc

I think i see Manny's point.

Iran wants nuke tech, India need fuel, The both don't like Pakistan.
They both get something they want and get to stick it to someone they dont like.

We may not like it but we really may be able to do squat about it.
India has it's own long term goals, and the US may only be mariginal player in those goal.

Mal68 wrote:

I think i see Manny's point.

Iran wants nuke tech, India need fuel, The both don't like Pakistan.
They both get something they want and get to stick it to someone they dont like.

We may not like it but we really may be able to do squat about it.
India has it's own long term goals, and the US may only be mariginal player in those goal.

That's a joke right??. Pakistan had excellent relations with iran before the revolution, and still does. They also trade amongst each other. Pakistan is buying oil from them and so is china. There is also a chance that iran might buy the JF-17's. As for india and iran, well india screwed it up by voting against iran in the IAEA. Which was one of the reasons why iran did'nt go ahead with the iran-pakistan-india gas pipeline deal.

.

After the Iranian revolution, Isn't that the point?
There are few lasting friendships among nations.
Each is governed by it's need to survive.

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After the Iranian revolution, Isn't that the point?

No. As Ayubi already said, Pakistan has good relations with Iran. What's so hard to understand?
To give you some arguments and bring the discussion back to aviation, PAF personnel have helped the IRIAF in 1993 with putting in operational status the 24 Mirage F1EQ that fled from Iraq during DS. In exchange they got all the spare parts and support equipment for F-16s that Iran had. (Some shipments were made in 1979 before the Islamic Revolution, pending the arrival of the first of some 300 IIAF Vipers, which ironically ended up in Israeli service).

Iran has F-16s?
the Iranian AF has F-4's and F-14's F-1's, MiG-29's, -25's, 23's among other airframes, (eek, talk about a support nightmare.)
The Venezuela offered to sell them to Iran if the US refused to sell them spare parts, yes.
But when did Iran actually buy them?
I've been unable to find that bit of data.

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Iran has F-16s?

NO. They ordered them, but only some spares and support equipment arrived in the country before the Islamic revolution. The planes on the assembly lines originally intended for Iran ended up in Israel.

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the Iranian AF has F-4's and F-14's F-1's, MiG-29's, -25's, 23's among other airframes

they don't have any MiG-23/25s in service, only some stored MiG-23s from those which fled from Iraq during ODS. In addition to what you wrote they also have F-5, F-7 (the Chinese copy of MiG-21) and the very potent striker Su-24. The also have a dozen Su-25 for CAS.

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The Venezuela offered to sell them to Iran if the US refused to sell them spare parts, yes.
But when did Iran actually buy them?

No. it was just political statements of Chavez. There is a thread or two about that on this forum, as well as one about the Iranian Tomcats. I suggest you search for them.

Forum: Air Power

My solution for India's air power needs