Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

American pilots vs Israeli pilots, who's better? This is regardless of AWACs support or anything like that. Let's just say we got an average American viper pilot vs an average Israeli one, who would win?

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Let me start off by saying that I bleed red, white and blue. That being said I think the Israeli would own the American. We all know that the IDF/AF Vipers have a few extra "features" that ours don't but even with a disadvantage I think the Israeli would still win. Those pilots train for war every day and as such are more prepared for it. Just look at their kill ratios in the major conflicts they've fought in.

Eagle wrote:

Let me start off by saying that I bleed red, white and blue. That being said I think the Israeli would own the American. We all know that the IDF/AF Vipers have a few extra "features" that ours don't but even with a disadvantage I think the Israeli would still win. Those pilots train for war every day and as such are more prepared for it. Just look at their kill ratios in the major conflicts they've fought in.

Yes, however one might argue that isnt the result of IDF pilots being highly skilled and its a result of their oponents being highly unskilled?

This isnt neccesarly my opinion im just raising a point

As far as head-to-head flying skills, it really could go either way. It's up to the individual driver. Put a USAF and IAF guy in identical jets and it'd be a toss-up. Up until late 2001 (prior to OEF) the IAF had vastly more actual combat flying hours than the USAF. That imbalance has since equalized somewhat with more and more USAF/ANG/AFR guys and gals rotating into the combat zones in Afghanistan and Iraq.

But I think the IAF may have an edge in the ROE arena. I'm probably off base here (and if any USAF driver get offended then I apologize in advance) but it seems like IAF planners have a little more leeway to use "unorthodox" tactics than their USAF counterparts. That's not to say that USAF guys aren't crafty, devious SOBs...they are. But some of the missions the IAF has done in the past are simply astonishing when you study 'em! And they did 'em without regard to the international backlash that came in the wake of the mission. They did it because they deemed it important to their nation and it was the right thing to do.

Why speculate? It already happened (by the way, I am both Israeli and American):

Report: IAF whips US pilots in exercise
By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN

TEL AVIV (September 24) - A recent joint exercise between the IAF and
US Navy Sixth Fleet pilots apparently resulted in a thorough routing of the US pilots, according to the latest edition of Air Force Monthly.

The American-based magazine said the exercise in question took place in the Negev skies and involved engagements between IAF F-16s and US
Navy F-14s and F/A-18s.

Quoting Israeli military sources, the magazine said one of the exercises
ended with the score of 40:1 in favor of the IAF. The magazine said Israel "downed" 220 aircraft for the loss of just 20 of its own.

It said that the results have not been officially published "to save the
reputations of the US Navy pilots."

The magazine did not say when the exercise took place. But security sources said that the dogfights took place about three months ago. They said the exercise was the first time that Israeli pilots actually took part in the maneuvers and didn't just give logistical support. Israeli pilots have also flown with various flight academies as guests or students.

The IAF said it does not give detailed results of training exercises. But air
force commanders were said to be incensed by the report. While refusing to confirm or deny the report, military sources said neither Israel or the US had officially released the "scores."

"We showed an arrogance we didn't mean to display," one senior IAF
officer said.

Yes but those aren't "Vipers"...........

Purplehaze

UltraEnigma wrote:

Why speculate? It already happened (by the way, I am both Israeli and American):

Report: IAF whips US pilots in exercise
By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN

TEL AVIV (September 24) - A recent joint exercise between the IAF and
US Navy Sixth Fleet pilots apparently resulted in a thorough routing of the US pilots, according to the latest edition of Air Force Monthly.

The American-based magazine said the exercise in question took place in the Negev skies and involved engagements between IAF F-16s and US
Navy F-14s and F/A-18s.

Quoting Israeli military sources, the magazine said one of the exercises
ended with the score of 40:1 in favor of the IAF. The magazine said Israel "downed" 220 aircraft for the loss of just 20 of its own.

It said that the results have not been officially published "to save the
reputations of the US Navy pilots."

The magazine did not say when the exercise took place. But security sources said that the dogfights took place about three months ago. They said the exercise was the first time that Israeli pilots actually took part in the maneuvers and didn't just give logistical support. Israeli pilots have also flown with various flight academies as guests or students.

The IAF said it does not give detailed results of training exercises. But air
force commanders were said to be incensed by the report. While refusing to confirm or deny the report, military sources said neither Israel or the US had officially released the "scores."

"We showed an arrogance we didn't mean to display," one senior IAF
officer said.

I dunno

That sounds a little far fetched from where im standing

I mean i could see the IAF taking the cake because A: They are really good pilots/B: Dont they already have a helmet system slaved to their Python 4/5 missiles?

B alone is going to make a HUGE difference in a dogfight

Like i said before i could see the IAF taking the cake but not via a massively lob-sidded victory like that....thats also quite the excersies eh? With 220+ USN Fighters taking part in dogfights? Basically the excersies of the year ladies and gents....although apparently no one has heard about it...

Forum Veteran Joined: Nov 07, 2003 - 09:12 PM Posts: 901

To my best knowledge, US Navy and USAF have had the training exercise with IDF/AF back in 1999. An article in AirForces Monthly featured the events.

I stand to be corrected (I second SU34's point). The WVR simulated ACM was not really a fair fights as the US Navy was fighting with AIM-9L against the Python 3/4 coupled to HMDS. Not sure if the USAF F-16CJ Vs IDF/AF F-15A/B have had the BVR setup.

I will go with LinkF-16SimDude, the Israelis were or are fighting wars within their own backyard. Extreme threats called for aggressive training & extraodinary tactics.

From the previous wars, the motivation to ensure the success in every missions, (that determines the very existence of the nation) is beyond any aviators can muster. I believe that is an intangible edge IDF/AF is having.

cheers,

The pilots of the US are definitly better, more combat experience, more missions flown, and in some cases better aircraft.
IDF/AF pilots also flew combat missions, but Americans flew more in number, and complexity. IDF/AF's main missions are bombing palestienian "terrorits" and Lebanes positions on ground, plus they never had the experience of being deployed for an abroad detachment expedentionary mission.

[Edited by mod for political content]

Hmmm...

A 40:1 kill ratio? I'd be curious to see what the ROE were. That number looks suspiciously like the USAF-vs-Indian AF games where the Eagles supposedly got their keisters handed to 'em.

Were the Navy guys handcuffed and how? Were they Super Bugs or Regular Bugs? Did the Navy guys simulate a threat much like the Fallon Agressors or did they go "fangs out" and go for the throat?

Until I see some specific ROE, I'm taking any report with a number that big with a large chuck of salt.

Quote:

With 220+ USN Fighters taking part in dogfights?

They don't mean that 220 individual jets took part. That'd be close to 3 Carrier Air Wings. Not feasable given the current deployments. They probably flew "X" amount of sorties with the same jets from one boat that would have been the equivalent of 220 jets, and the kill ratio was based on the final result.

Quote:

IDF/AF's main missions are bombing palestienian "terrorits" and Lebanes positions on ground.

It is interesting how the air force whose main mission “ are bombing palestienian "terrorits" and Lebanes positions on ground” managed in three hours on June 5, 1967 to destroy 300 out of 500 Egyptian aircraft and on June 9, 1982 to destroy 100 Syrian aircraft with zero Israeli losses .

As for putting the terrorist in quotes, terrorism is the deliberate targeting of noncombatants. Even the UN is proposing this definition. ALL of the 140 Palestinian suicide bombers deliberately targeted civilians in buses, shopping malls, cafes and even grocery shops If the people who organize this are not terrorists then who is?

Let's avoid politics in this discussion...

stefaan

Stefaan wrote:

Let's avoid politics in this discussion...

I concur. I was not the one to bring the subject of politics in, but once it was mentioned, the record had to be set straight.

However, F-16s are machines of war and discussing technology without sometimes mentioning politics in the context is unavoidable. For instance, Rodger W. Claire's recent book "<b><a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767914007/threefournineA">Raid on the sun</a></b>" about the Israeli raid on Saddam Hussein's nuclear reactor at Osirak in 1981 works precisely because he manages to describe the political situation at the time, as well as the gripping raid itself. His book is based on the interviews with all the Israeli pilots who participated except Ilan Ramon.

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

USAF vs IDF/AF