Forum: Program and politics

CF-18 Engine Shutdowns Raise Concerns About Purchase of Single-Engine F-35
by Lee Berthiaume of Postmedia

"OTTAWA — Government records show Canadian CF-18 pilots shut down one of their aircraft’s two engines in midflight more than 200 times since 1988 because of safety concerns.

The revelation highlights a key aspect of the debate over whether the single-engine F-35 stealth jet is not only the right aircraft for Canada, but also the safest — or whether the air force would be better off with another dual-engine jet."

"Between 1988 and March 31, 2012, there were 228 precautionary engine shutdowns, the report reads, though it emphasizes that “a precautionary engine shut-down is not an engine failure.”

“Since this is a precautionary measure, there is no way to know if the engine would actually have failed or not, had it continued to be used.”

That caveat did little to calm opposition critics and experts, who were alarmed by the average of about 10 engine shutdowns per year for more than two decades — and what it could mean for the F-35.

“They’re not shutting down the engine because they think it’s a great idea,” said NDP defence critic Jack Harris, who requested the information from National Defence. “They’re shutting it down because they have to."

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2012/09/ ... gine-f-35/

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Quote:

A military pilot called for a priority landing because his single-engine jet fighter was running “a bit peaked.”

Air Traffic Control told the fighter pilot that he was number two, behind a B-52 that had one engine shut down.

“Ah,” the fighter pilot remarked, “The dreaded seven-engine approach.

http://aviationhumor.net/a-military-pilot-called-for-a-priority-landing/

The Canadians certainly seem to worry a lot. Why not go for three engines since they have so bad experiences with two? Mr. Green

A secret new THREE ENGINE Canadian fighter aircraft spotted !!!
The only way to be safe in the vast northern climes insiders say.......

...

So when is Canada gonna cancel its order already? Really, I dare them to do it; I WANT them to do it. Nothing would give me more pleasure than to see the RCAF flying something else. Maybe they could start over with China and the J-21 since they want a second engine so bad. Mr. Green

So all that means is that means is that Canada should not buy any F-18E's with General Electric engines as they have a history of failure. But this isn't suprising given all the recent trouble the Boeing 787-8 and 747-800 are having with there brand new GE engines.

As for the F-135 Prat and Whitney engine:

Quote:

The unique maintenance-focused design of the F135 engine has approximately 40 percent few parts than legacy systems, reducing maintenance costs and improving overall reliability. All line-replaceable components can be removed and replaced with a set of six common hand tools. In addition, the propulsion system features advanced prognostic and on-condition management systems that provide maintenance awareness, autonomic logistic support, and automatic field data and test systems.

Right now as you read this the F135 engine has well over 17,000 hours of ground testing making it one of the most thoroughly tested jet fighter engines in aviation history.

I wonder what any other equivalent operator of Hornet engine records might show. Perhaps the Canadians are showing us that they do not maintain their engines very well at all. Sad indeed. There is at least another thread about this single engine topic on this forum with many interventions about the same item in other threads.

spazsinbad wrote:

I wonder what any other equivalent operator of Hornet engine records might show. Perhaps the Canadians are showing us that they do not maintain their engines very well at all. Sad indeed. There is at least another thread about this single engine topic on this forum with many interventions about the same item in other threads.

I don't think its that's out of the ordinary... remember this is over 22 years or operation, a significant portion of which occurred in the late 1980s and early 1990s when maintenance practices were quite a bit different. I would suspect that those "issues" occurred disproportionately before 1999. If you did a comparison with F-16s (or better yet F-15) Engine related Cat A rates during the same period they would probably be fairly similar.

spazsinbad wrote:

Perhaps the Canadians are showing us that they do not maintain their engines very well at all. Sad indeed.

This is further from the truth. We maintain our engines just as well if not better than the other F404 operators.

Quote:

“They’re not shutting down the engine because they think it’s a great idea,” said NDP defence critic Jack Harris, who requested the information from National Defence. “They’re shutting it down because they have to."

No, they are shutting them down because they don't want to make more damage. It's part of the Pilot's checklist. I'm fairly confident that with a single engined aircraft, engine shutdown would be the last resort.

Newbie Joined: Mar 16, 2012 - 08:36 PM Posts: 18

All USAF engine saftey statistics that are free public info can be found here:

http://www.afsec.af.mil/organizations/a ... /index.asp

The info in the link above only shows the number of aircraft class A mishaps caused by the engine.
Don't compare to the Candian figures. These figures do not show precautionary engine shutdowns or real engine shutdowns without a class A mishap.

'pushoksti' said (prolly tongue in cheek Very Happy

) "...I'm fairly confident that with a single engined aircraft, engine shutdown would be the last resort." Let us not forget that reduced power may be helpful to get the aircraft back (depending on what the problem is perhaps). I guess since the engine relight testing that the F-35 glide characterstics are well known by now. It is remarkable how far a single engine mil jet can glide from altitude at optimum glide speed. Landing may be difficult but. Very Happy

It is frankly getting annoying listening to Canada whine about the F-35. If you did a google news search of F-35 for most of this year it was all about Canada's bitching on the subject. Buy it or not. Good grief. Canada acts like it has defense requirements that are different from the rest of the world.

spazsinbad wrote:

I wonder what any other equivalent operator of Hornet engine records might show. Perhaps the Canadians are showing us that they do not maintain their engines very well at all. Sad indeed. There is at least another thread about this single engine topic on this forum with many interventions about the same item in other threads.

There are reasons other than the engine itself why a F/A-18 pilot would shut down an engine. Fuel leak, AMAD oil leak, and some hydraulic leaks also recommend an engine shutdown. Maintenance (or lack there of) issues have caused a large percentage of engine shutdowns in the F/A-18 & CF-18, both complete failure and pilot initiated.

The mishap in San Diego was two separate causes contributing to a mishap. First, there was an oil leak in a subsystem related to the right engine, resulting in the pilot shutting it down, by the checklist. Later on, the fuel system malfunctioned failed causing the left engine to fail, and the jet crashed seconds later. The problem with the fuel system was known prior to flight, and "waivered" to allow flight.

In the Oceana mishap, The right engine had a fuel leak in (intake vanes, maybe?) that resulted in a hot surge, destroying the engine HP compressor, and throwing a blade on takeoff. The left engine, had an afterburner blowout at a very bad time, and the pilot didn't have enough thrust to keep the jet airborne.

Several crashes have occurred as a result of difficulty with singe-engine handling in the F/A-18.

bigjku wrote:

It is frankly getting annoying listening to Canada whine about the F-35. If you did a google news search of F-35 for most of this year it was all about Canada's bitching on the subject. Buy it or not. Good grief. Canada acts like it has defense requirements that are different from the rest of the world.

It's mainly the opposition party that is whining. The DND and current MAJORITY government fully support the F35 project and will be making an official purchase shortly. Stupid uninformed Canadians and the opposition can whine all they want, they aren't stopping the F35 from coming to Canada.

neurotech wrote:

Several crashes have occurred as a result of difficulty with singe-engine handling in the F/A-18.

But not the two you mentioned - can you provide some examples? Almost all single engine recoveries are successful. There are exceptions, but overall the Hornet is a very safe aircraft to operate with one engine inop.

Forum: Program and politics

Canadian Concern About Purchase of Single Engine F-35