Forum: General F-35 Forum

arkadyrenko wrote:

Isn't the signal processing going to be the biggest problem with EW integration with F-35? Right now, the F-35 is facing some weight and internal cooling issues.

Apparently you missed the memo, the F-35 has been loosing weight this year, not gaining it.

As to the signal processing issue, there is an entire 8-slot ICP bay at the rear of the F-35 just waiting for future upgrades. Combine that with upgraded processors and better thermal management (already in the works) and this should not be an issue.

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Yet, no one is talking about it, even theoretically. Not the Air Force, who seems remarkably complacent ceding most strike, and all public, EW to the Navy.

The question is can the F-35 take the necessary signal processing to take EW suite, having 8 ICP slots available helps, but isn't necessarily enough. Nor is the improved coolant systems. And, can the technology be integrated for a reasonable cost. Plus, having only one pilot for the EW system may not be sufficient and effective.

All the processing in the current ICP is handled by 2, yes only 2 TR1 GP modules. Throw in a generation (or two) leap in capacity by the time TR3/4 rolls around and also considering that every pylon is wired with a fibre optic connection and you should realize (whether the USAF wants to talk about it or not) that the F-35 was designed to handle the NJG (or any other high-bandwidth) pod.

The only internal increased heat-load that the NGJ would produce is for the upgraded ICP. The pods handle whatever heat is generated in the pods themselves.

arkadyrenko wrote:

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the F-35 couldn't do EW with its radar. That isn't going to be as good as a dedicated pod though.

If you can't do off-airframe jamming, except for pre-programmed jammers, then one really does need to build a fast heavy airframe. Heavy to carry the electronics and two person crew and fast to run away, as it'll be broadcasting its position half the time. That would have to be the F-15E replacement, whenever that comes along. (Advent, Mach 3, one can dream)

If a jam resistant datalink, and intelligent signal processing on the UCAV airframe is developed then thats one thing, but it wont a simple bolt-on development. Hopefully they'll make the NGJ EA modules capable of non-interference with datalinks, but It'd have to be designed from the start with that in mind. Co-operative jamming between aircraft (UCAV or manned) is quite complex to implement.

The NGB is also going to be an expensive platform, even at $500m each

I'm thinking that it'll be an off-shoot of the NGAD actually. This could be ADVENT (or PW-F119). IMO the Navy will probably end up with a 5.5th Gen jet that could be exported, and low procurement cost. An exotic 6th Gen jet in limited numbers isn't going to cut it. A 5.5th Gen NGAD would be 2-seat, fast and stealth. That would be perfect for an EA platform.

arkadyrenko wrote:

... Not the Air Force, who seems remarkably complacent ceding most strike, and all public, EW to the Navy.....

Read up on the EC-130H Compass Call, they may take exception to that statement and ..... NGJ is slated for those complacent folks, as well.

SpudmanWP wrote:

...The only internal increased heat-load that the NGJ would produce is for the upgraded ICP. The pods handle whatever heat is generated in the pods themselves.

One of the best things about the NGJ is that it is configurable and in the F-35 with the VLO NGJ pods, the "smarts" are all handled by the onboard ICP and the heavy lifting (heat) is done by the pods.

In the legacy a/c both jobs are handled in the pod.

By the time the NGJ is hanging on the wings, The elint, ISR and EW systems will be updating continually the EW tactics and technology that all services will be flying in the F-35. As some Aussies have mentioned even their RC-12, with our on lovable Army guys will be "kickin' in to the pot" for EW. All else will be handled capably by the AGM-88 Harm or heavier! IMHO Laughing

neptune wrote:

arkadyrenko wrote:

... Not the Air Force, who seems remarkably complacent ceding most strike, and all public, EW to the Navy.....

Read up on the EC-130H Compass Call, they may take exception to that statement and ..... NGJ is slated for those complacent folks, as well.

Isn't the EC-130H used for coms jamming more than escort radar jamming? I'd also be worried about the EC-130H getting hit by a SAM. An EA-18 would be a good investment for the USAF, and maybe send them to the Navy when they are no longer needed. A C-130J(EC-130Q) could be moved between the USAF & USMC if needed.

arkadyrenko wrote:

Yet, no one is talking about it, even theoretically. Not the Air Force, who seems remarkably complacent ceding most strike, and all public, EW to the Navy.

The question is can the F-35 take the necessary signal processing to take EW suite, having 8 ICP slots available helps, but isn't necessarily enough. Nor is the improved coolant systems. And, can the technology be integrated for a reasonable cost. Plus, having only one pilot for the EW system may not be sufficient and effective.

The F-35 (or the Prowler/Growler) cannot generate the electrical power required for a comprehensive wideband electronic attack suite - hence the self powered podded solutions currently in use, and proposed for the NGJ. As for internal processing power, the F-35 ICP is designed to scale easier than previous systems, so I don't think it will be a huge constraint on the techniques software that drive the pods. The issue of integrating a robust EW/EA system on already complex and immature software blocks is basically why you won't see the NGJ on the F-35 for quite some time - if at all. Which leads to the possibility of more limited or special purpose EW/EA payloads, with limited hooks into the host system - developed for specific regions or customers.... like what the Israelis may be envisioning.

This statement by Burbage in Canberra recently seen on previous page of this thread has more credibility than any negative envisionings stated above:

"...While development of an electronic warfare variant of the F-35 has been put on hold due to the US Defence budget cuts, work on ensuring the Lockheed Martin-designed stealth fighter will be compatible with the NGJ is understood to be continuing.

Speaking in Canberra last week, Lockheed Martin vice president and general manager for program integration for the JSF, Tom Burbage, confirmed his company's plane was a threshold platform for the NGJ.

“The next generation jammer is not the Growler in its current state; the next generation jammer is a project that has a number of platforms that could potentially carry the equipment - the F-35 being one of them,” he said..... "

http://www.smh.com.au/act-news/blogs/in ... ?#comments

neurotech wrote:

neptune wrote:

arkadyrenko wrote:

... Not the Air Force, who seems remarkably complacent ceding most strike, and all public, EW to the Navy.....

Read up on the EC-130H Compass Call, they may take exception to that statement and ..... NGJ is slated for those complacent folks, as well.

Isn't the EC-130H used for coms jamming more than escort radar jamming? I'd also be worried about the EC-130H getting hit by a SAM. An EA-18 would be a good investment for the USAF, and maybe send them to the Navy when they are no longer needed. A C-130J(EC-130Q) could be moved between the USAF & USMC if needed.

Yup - but instead of jamming the radar, the EC-130H could interfere with the comm/data links between the TELs, and the various radars and command and control nodes.

@Spazsibad: I do detect a little bit of bias in Tom Burbages statements. The EA-18 is a Boeing jet.

Does the F-35 ICP have room to grow? definitely.
Is the mission systems/cockpit display interface more flexible than previous jets? definitely.

The software/systems integration in the F-35 is a large part of whats on-hold due to budget cuts. He is basically saying NGJ is not a Growler specific system, it's intended for multiple jets. How much additional workload the NGJ will place on F-35 pilots is debatable. The EA-18 reduced the crew from 4 to 2, the F-35 is reducing that to a single pilot.

spazsinbad wrote:

“The next generation jammer is not the Growler in its current state; the next generation jammer is a project that has a number of platforms that could potentially carry the equipment - the F-35 being one of them,” he [Burbage] said..... "

http://www.smh.com.au/act-news/blogs/in ... ?#comments

No matter how Mr. Burbage attempts to spin it, the Growler is the launch platform for the NGJ , and the Growler will be carrying the NGJ payload and its iterations into the 2030's. He is correct that a number of platforms might host a variant of the NGJ (in the future), maybe the B-52 or other manned bomber, but more likely an unmanned platform like the N-UCAS.

From AV Week:

"Streamlining aside, contractors worry about some aspects of the project. They do not think the NGJ will be added to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter on time, or perhaps at all, because there have been so many delays in getting through the JSF program basics, according to a vice president in one of the competing companies. “There is a concept for making [the F-35] an electronic attack platform, but they can't even think about those sorts of things yet,” the official says. That means NGJ production might stretch out considerably, unless the system is adapted to other designs, most likely unmanned platforms with both stealthy and non-stealthy designs, which could be a boon to industry, contractors agree."

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 413263.xml

What might show up on the F-35B is a more limited communications jammer, like the USMC Intrepid Tiger II program - intended to disrupt battlefield communications and optionally controllable from Marines on the ground. And whatever the Israelis come up with, depending on how much access to the F-35 software and systems they are allowed.

Last edited by spazsinbad on Aug 28, 2012 - 01:25 PM; edited 1 time in total

Interesting quote then on the 2nd page of above wherein the benefits of 'miniaturisation' may be relevant to not only UAVs but F-35s etc.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... ml&p=2

"...“The F-35 has other tasks to do, and the Defense Department has invested a lot in making a low-observable aircraft,” Green says. “There are other platforms we could put NGJ on that would be lower risk and a better use of resources. That's not to say putting NGJ on F-35 will never happen. But the Defense Department is going to be looking at other solutions.”

The initial plan of making the F-35 (probably the Marine Corps B-model) an early user of the NGJ is being de-emphasized in favor of a more intense focus on the EA-18G Prowler as the initial platform for a fully funded AEA program. In turn, the JSF program will concentrate on more immediate production and development problems.

The Growler, although the newest aircraft in the fleet, will have a limited service life of 15-17 years left by the time it starts carrying NGJ pods. Service planners say they must have an AEA system that can be “transportable” from platform to platform in order to support an advanced electronic attack capability.

“There is the potential to combine radar, electronic warfare and other capabilities for use in smaller aircraft,” says Green. “It could very well be a UAV because the Growler has a limited lifespan.”..."

neurotech wrote:

Quote:

Growler money well spent: Defence, Williams Foundation August 27, 2012 By David Ellery

http://www.smh.com.au/act-news/blogs/in ... ?#comments
(snip)
...Super Hornets fitted with the ALQ-99 pods will become subsonic aircraft even though the planes are capable of speeds of up to Mach 1.8 in normal configuration.

The same is expected to be true of Super Hornets and JSFs fitted with the NGJ with the pods currently under development expected to be “optimised for subsonic speeds around Mach 0.9 or below” according to Flight Global....

...“Some commentators have asserted that the Growler's electronic warfare suite will become superseded in five year's time. This misses the point. Once the initial capability has been acquired the ADF will be able to update the Growler as and when necessary.”

The cost of replacing the ALQ-99 pods with NGJ pods remains a big unknown. It is expected to be at least as expensive as the initial purchase of ALQ-99 pods however."

A longish article best read entirely at the URL above m'luds.

The SH can't do M1.8 in 'normal' configuration. Loose the wing pylons, then it can fly that quick - maybe a center tank for good luck. This is with wingtip missiles only. Keeping the Growler at under Mach 0.9 is the same basic profile for most strike aircraft, so not a big limitation really.

The ALQ-99 pods are relatively cheap(<$4m) and chances are the NGJ will likely be under $10m empty. The cost of the pod upgrade is overblown.

EA modules in either pod will be upgraded as needed. I personally think the AN/ALQ-218 & EW signal processing is significantly more of the capability factor than EA pod itself.

With two pods and a centerline the Growler would be lucky to make .9 at max blast downhill.

arkadyrenko wrote:

Isn't the signal processing going to be the biggest problem with EW integration with F-35? Right now, the F-35 is facing some weight and internal cooling issues. That does make it more expensive to add more advanced EW electronics, limiting the EW presence right now to pods.

"EW" system is already in the F-35 and functional -- the ASQ-239.

Forum: General F-35 Forum

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