Forum: General F-35 Forum

archeman wrote:

One should be careful choosing a jammer aircraft.
These types tend to be very very long lived additions to whatever service uses them.

It would not be a mistake at all for RAAF to (re-)evaluate the potential capabilities of an additional jammer package for the F-35 instead of full speed committing to F-18 based conversions.

We have committed to the Growler. That's what all the fuss is about at present.

It's been seen as likely for some time that the requirement for Australia's fourth tranche of F-35 fighters will be replaced by the Super Hornet and now Growler capability that we have invested so heavily in.

This will undoubtedly now push that fourth tranche of F-35 fighters back a number of years or may eliminate it entirely in favour of some other capability (UCAV's perhaps).

Still a RAAF air combat force with 72x JSF's and 24x Super Hornet / Growler with all of our force multipliers, will be a more than credible force within our region.

Not even Australia spends $8.1 Billion on air combat capability intended to last only 13 years in-service...

As to those who doubt the wisdom of the ALQ-99 pod, I have no doubt Australia will be seeking access to NGJ as soon as it has been declared operational by the USN. Just as we will be seeking AARGM when it reaches the same milestone, in favour of HARM...

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[quote="Conan"]

archeman wrote:

,,choosing a jammer aircraft. These types tend to be very very long lived additions to whatever service uses them....

...
As to those who doubt the wisdom of the ALQ-99 pod, I have no doubt Australia will be seeking access to NGJ as soon as it has been declared operational by the USN. ..quote]

Totally agree! Smile

As the Marines in the EA-6B are phased out and the Growlers are brought on to take over the Jammer/ ISR role the AN/ALQ-99 will continue to be "state of the art" and updated for all users.

When the NGJ is fielded it will be flown on all a/c types that currently carry the -99 (Growler, etc.) and in the LO a/c it's algorithms may be incorporated into the onboard EW system, thus allowing more power to the podded transmitters/ antennas.

Boeing continues to LO the F/A-18 Super Bug and some of those features could be upgraded onto the Growler.

The diversity of theaters (A/O) should ensure the NGJ will be tested and shared with the RAAF.

It will be interesting to see how the RAAF with Growlers/ F-35 and the USN EP-C3-"ARIES", USAF EC-130H-"Compass Call" and the USAF/ RAF RC-135-"Rivet Joint" will co-ordinate in the EW effort in this new area of operations.

The EW world has a number of unique a/c where all "can" add to the systems and databases enhancements, continually.

Now the RAAF can become a player with the Growler and F-35s! Very Happy

neptune wrote:

It will be interesting to see how the RAAF with Growlers/ F-35 and the USN EP-C3-"ARIES", USAF EC-130H-"Compass Call" and the USAF/ RAF RC-135-"Rivet Joint" will co-ordinate in the EW effort in this new area of operations.

The EW world has a number of unique a/c where all "can" add to the systems and databases enhancements, continually.

Now the RAAF can become a player with the Growler and F-35s! Very Happy

We're not starting from scratch in this area. Those EP-3 and Compass Call types you mention for instance, we have aircraft with similar capabilities. We also have a number of funny looking King Air types...

Wink

Conan wrote:

neptune wrote:

It will be interesting to see how the RAAF with Growlers/ F-35 and the USN EP-C3-"ARIES", USAF EC-130H-"Compass Call" and the USAF/ RAF RC-135-"Rivet Joint" will co-ordinate in the EW effort in this new area of operations.

The EW world has a number of unique a/c where all "can" add to the systems and databases enhancements, continually.

Now the RAAF can become a player with the Growler and F-35s! Very Happy

We're not starting from scratch in this area. Those EP-3 and Compass Call types you mention for instance, we have aircraft with similar capabilities. We also have a number of funny looking King Air types...

Wink

I think we're confusing Electronic Warfare with Electronic Attack aircraft. The P-3 or EP-3 does not have escort jamming or standoff jamming aircraft. The EP-3 does have significant ELINT capability, but not radar jamming. The upgraded AP-3C aircraft are a considerable asset for the RAAF but can't do everything.

No they don't, but some of those aircraft along with Wedgetail are VERY good listeners...

[quote="neurotech...I think we're confusing Electronic Warfare with Electronic Attack aircraft. The P-3 or EP-3 does not have escort jamming or standoff jamming aircraft. The EP-3 does have significant ELINT capability, but not radar jamming....[/quote]

Not really, the F-35 has significant ISR capabilities in addition to the EW capabilities, it's that "Fusion Engine" thing that is getting talked about, recently.

Each of the legacy platforms had a mission and overtime that "scope of design" has been upgraded by technology and tactics. ISR is spread over many platforms and in many different technologies. Some of those are integrated into weapon contol systems. The F-35 has the benefit of a Mission System that can "merge" associated technologies into an enhanced display of information for the pilot and passed on to other users on the network. The EA is currently handled by several platforms including the EA-6B, E/A-18G, EC-130H Compass Call. Cool

USN don't seam to have a problem with sharing gear.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... gs-375792/

That link already posted on previous page 'meatshield'. DUH.

Woops my bad!

Growler money well spent: Defence, Williams Foundation August 27, 2012 By David Ellery

http://www.smh.com.au/act-news/blogs/in ... ?#comments

...It has been widely reported the next generation jammer, a US Navy program designed to replace the ALQ-99 electronic warfare pods is intended to be compatible with both the Super Hornet and the Joint Strike Fighter.

Because of reliability problems with the ALQ-99 pods work on the NGJ has been accelerated with vendor selection now expected next year, not in 2015 as originally planned. This is expected to be a “winner takes all competition”.

Speaking in August, 2010, Captain John Green of the US Navy said the NGJ was being developed to work with both the Growler and the JSF.

“The analysis of alternatives group is looking at very smart processes for making solutions for EA-18G and F-35 as similar as possible,” Captain Green, the program manager for the airborne electronic attack and EA-6B Prowler, said.

“Initial operating capability (of the NGJ) should happen in 2020,” he predicted.

This is only two years after Australia's Growlers - fitted with the ALQ-99 pods - are expected to reach initial operating capability in 2018.

Australia's first JSF squadron is tipped to become operational sometime in between.

While development of an electronic warfare variant of the F-35 has been put on hold due to the US Defence budget cuts, work on ensuring the Lockheed Martin-designed stealth fighter will be compatible with the NGJ is understood to be continuing.

Speaking in Canberra last week, Lockheed Martin vice president and general manager for program integration for the JSF, Tom Burbage, confirmed his company's plane was a threshold platform for the NGJ.

“The next generation jammer is not the Growler in its current state; the next generation jammer is a project that has a number of platforms that could potentially carry the equipment - the F-35 being one of them,” he said.....

...Super Hornets fitted with the ALQ-99 pods will become subsonic aircraft even though the planes are capable of speeds of up to Mach 1.8 in normal configuration.

The same is expected to be true of Super Hornets and JSFs fitted with the NGJ with the pods currently under development expected to be “optimised for subsonic speeds around Mach 0.9 or below” according to Flight Global....

...“Some commentators have asserted that the Growler's electronic warfare suite will become superseded in five year's time. This misses the point. Once the initial capability has been acquired the ADF will be able to update the Growler as and when necessary.”

The cost of replacing the ALQ-99 pods with NGJ pods remains a big unknown. It is expected to be at least as expensive as the initial purchase of ALQ-99 pods however."

A longish article best read entirely at the URL above m'luds.

Quote:

Growler money well spent: Defence, Williams Foundation August 27, 2012 By David Ellery

http://www.smh.com.au/act-news/blogs/in ... ?#comments
(snip)
...Super Hornets fitted with the ALQ-99 pods will become subsonic aircraft even though the planes are capable of speeds of up to Mach 1.8 in normal configuration.

The same is expected to be true of Super Hornets and JSFs fitted with the NGJ with the pods currently under development expected to be “optimised for subsonic speeds around Mach 0.9 or below” according to Flight Global....

...“Some commentators have asserted that the Growler's electronic warfare suite will become superseded in five year's time. This misses the point. Once the initial capability has been acquired the ADF will be able to update the Growler as and when necessary.”

The cost of replacing the ALQ-99 pods with NGJ pods remains a big unknown. It is expected to be at least as expensive as the initial purchase of ALQ-99 pods however."

A longish article best read entirely at the URL above m'luds.

The SH can't do M1.8 in 'normal' configuration. Loose the wing pylons, then it can fly that quick - maybe a center tank for good luck. This is with wingtip missiles only. Keeping the Growler at under Mach 0.9 is the same basic profile for most strike aircraft, so not a big limitation really.

The ALQ-99 pods are relatively cheap(<$4m) and chances are the NGJ will likely be under $10m empty. The cost of the pod upgrade is overblown.

EA modules in either pod will be upgraded as needed. I personally think the AN/ALQ-218 & EW signal processing is significantly more of the capability factor than EA pod itself.

Isn't the signal processing going to be the biggest problem with EW integration with F-35? Right now, the F-35 is facing some weight and internal cooling issues. That does make it more expensive to add more advanced EW electronics, limiting the EW presence right now to pods.

The Marines get around that by their cooperative EW network being coordinated by another system, either ground based or air based.

Personally, I think that the prevention for EW and F-35 is a combination of single pilot and lack of internal space. If the USAF does build another F-111 class airframe, that would be much better at EW. Though, if they wanted to get nasty, they'd put the signals analysis into the NGB and farm out the emitters to UCAVs... UCAVs escort F-35s, NGB coordinates from a safe distance.

Adding further detail.

Quote:

Australia – EA-18G Airborne Electronic Attack (AEA) Aircraft Modification Kits
WASHINGTON, May 22, 2012 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress today of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Australia for 12 EA-18G Modification Kits to convert F/A-18F aircrafts to the G configuration and associated parts, equipment, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $1.7 billion.

The Government of Australia has requested a possible sale of 12 EA-18G Modification Kits to convert F/A-18F aircrafts to G configuration, (34) AN/ALQ-99F(V) Tactical Jamming System Pods, (22) CN-1717/A Interference Cancellation Systems (INCANS), (22) R-2674(C)/A Joint Tactical Terminal Receiver (JTTR) Systems, (30) LAU-118 Guided Missile Launchers, Command Launch Computer (CLC) for High Speed Anti-Radiation Missile (HARM) and Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM, spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government (USG) and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated cost is $1.7 billion.

http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/ ... _12-27.pdf

arkadyrenko wrote:

Isn't the signal processing going to be the biggest problem with EW integration with F-35? Right now, the F-35 is facing some weight and internal cooling issues. That does make it more expensive to add more advanced EW electronics, limiting the EW presence right now to pods.

The scuttlebutt is that the original plan is to use the AESA radar (APG-77/APG-81) can jam a target with upgraded software. The software isn't developed yet for either jet. The problem with that idea is that neither APG-77 or APG-81 has low-band emitters, to jam ground radar that is used by some SAMs.

arkadyrenko wrote:

Personally, I think that the prevention for EW and F-35 is a combination of single pilot and lack of internal space.

Yes, that is a factor. The other issue is that the MADL or APG-81(or APG-77 and earlier 4th gen radar) has issues with interference. That is one big reason for the push is to create a new solution in the NGJ.

arkadyrenko wrote:

If the USAF does build another F-111 class airframe, that would be much better at EW. Though, if they wanted to get nasty, they'd put the signals analysis into the NGB and farm out the emitters to UCAVs... UCAVs escort F-35s, NGB coordinates from a safe distance.

A UCAV radar jammer is certainly an option, although a large amount of the signal processing must still be done on the airframe, and theres still the risk of interference from the jammer.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the F-35 couldn't do EW with its radar. That isn't going to be as good as a dedicated pod though.

If you can't do off-airframe jamming, except for pre-programmed jammers, then one really does need to build a fast heavy airframe. Heavy to carry the electronics and two person crew and fast to run away, as it'll be broadcasting its position half the time. That would have to be the F-15E replacement, whenever that comes along. (Advent, Mach 3, one can dream)

Forum: General F-35 Forum

NGJ Carried by F-35 Early Next Decade (Oz Growler Equip Buy)