Forum: General F-35 Forum

Growler obsolete in 5 years, expert says August 24, 2012 by David Ellery

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/nationa ... 24pb0.html

Australia's $1.5 billion ''Growler'' electronic warfare fleet may be redundant within four or five years of its delivery in 2018, a senior Lockheed Martin official has said.

Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin's general manager for program integration, said his company's Joint Strike Fighter was one of the planes that would be able to carry the next generation jammer which is expected to come into operation with the US military early next decade.

Although Australia is committed to buying up to 100 of the stealth strike aircraft under the current Defence White Paper, Defence Minister Stephen Smith and Defence Materiel Minister Jason Clare yesterday announced the government had approved $1.5 billion for Australian Growlers.

While the spend will ensure 12 aircraft have the capacity to operate the controversial ALQ-99 electronic warfare pods that were originally designed during the Vietnam War, it does not appear it will stretch to one pod for each aircraft.

''We are putting ourselves in the position where at any given time we can have six (Super Hornets) operating with Growler itself. So, we'll effectively have a fleet of 12 at any point in time we can have six in the air,'' Mr Smith said....

...The American government has accelerated work on the next generation jammer program to counter problems with its own Growler fleet.

Planes fitted with the next generation jammer could be flying as early as 2022.

Defence insiders say the Growler buy will put pressure on the RAAF to retain its 24-strong Super Hornet fleet, acquired as a stop gap to give Australia a deterrent strike capability due to the early retirement of the F-111s, at the expense of future JSF numbers.,,,

...Designed in large part to bring America's electronic warfare capability into the 21st century, the next generation jammer is expected to be significantly more capable than the pods fitted to the Growlers which have been criticised as unreliable by the US Government Accountability Office and described as ''woefully inadequate'' by United States defence analyst Loren Thompson.

''The next generation jammer is a project that has a number of platforms that could potentially carry the equipment, the F-35 being one of them.''..."

Makes more sense to read the entire article at the JUMP! Tah.

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Australia To Buy Growler Technology From U.S. Aug. 23, 2012 By NIGEL PITTAWAY

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... t|Topics|p

"...The ministers said that the [Growler Fitted] aircraft will be available for operational use from 2018, at which time Australia will be the only country outside the U.S. to field a Growler capability.

Australia also has a requirement for up to 100 F-35A Joint Strike Fighters, but Lockheed Martin EVP/GM F-35 Program Integration Tom Burbage, also in Canberra on Aug. 23 for meetings with government officials, said he didn’t see the Growler purchase as a threat to the total number.

“We view them as totally separate programs; Growler has a whole different mission” than the F-35, he said. “It is a broad spectrum electronic warfare capability, where the F-35 does electronic attack. Those are two different missions.”

More or less same as first post at the jump - extra info above added for F-35 connection etc.

I have no idea but I guess it will get worked out. No?

Australia to convert 12 Super Hornets into EA-18G Growlers By: Dave Majumdar Washington DC 23 Aug 2012

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... rs-375761/

"...Growler's currently ALQ-99 suite are not in production. The US Navy hopes to replace the mid-band jammers with its next generation jammer pod, which is expected to reach initial operational capability in 2020.

The EA-18G's low-band jamming pod, which is relatively new, is currently in production.

US Naval Air Systems Command officials could not immediately say how the US would supply the Australia with the jamming pods."

They are being sourced from US Navy inventory "when Australia wants them" for 2018 delivery. The ALQ-99 is very effective against non-AESA fighter radar and can still disrupt AESA radar. Even the Su-30MKI has older PESA radar. The radar signature data for the ALQ-99 is highly sensitive, and Australia will be the first country to purchase the system. Loren Thompson saying they'll be soon obsolete is a distortion. The ALQ-99 & ALQ-218 software is updated regularly. The ALQ-99 hardware has also been upgraded to improve reliability and performance.

Neurotech pretty much said it all right there except for one thing. The ALQ-99 system has been around for 40+ years and is now being exported for the first time. Unless the NGJ is a joint program (i'm not sure if it is or is not) I dont see the NGJ system being exported anytime soon.

EMF is EMF. The only difference with AESA is that it can switch signatures faster and by multiples. Growler has enough space, including on its hardpoints, to degrade enemies and make the exercise worthwhile.

neurotech wrote:

... Loren Thompson saying they'll be soon obsolete is a distortion. The ALQ-99 & ALQ-218 software is updated regularly. The ALQ-99 hardware has also been upgraded to improve reliability and performance.

With it's debut in Linebacker II/ December 1972 the EA-6B with the AN/ALQ-99 is best described as "The modular open architecture of the jammer system, which facilitates optimizing transmitters and antennas for a given frequency range, also facilitates tailored mission configurations." The only similarity of 1972 and 2012 is the same system designation. With a generation life of 2 years in electronics, this equates to 20 generations of evolution. In 1972 the US was completing building a/c with vacumn tube systems. The -99 is constantly upgraded with technology and tactics. Both the NGJ and the EW system in the F-35/22 were base line developed on the current technological capabilites of the -99. By fielding the EF-18G the RAAF will be one of the most capable airforces with honed skills and technology that will enable their "Tip of the Spear" goals. The ISR capabilites of the RAAF EF-18G will be extemely valuable in collecting and analyzing the techniques of their more aggressive neighbors. The USN will provide the latest technologies and upgrades to the RAAF in their role of "frontline" units, if not but for mutually beneficial field testing and verifications. Smile

neptune wrote:

neurotech wrote:

... Loren Thompson saying they'll be soon obsolete is a distortion. The ALQ-99 & ALQ-218 software is updated regularly. The ALQ-99 hardware has also been upgraded to improve reliability and performance.

With it's debut in Linebacker II/ December 1972 the EA-6B with the AN/ALQ-99 is best described as "The modular open architecture of the jammer system, which facilitates optimizing transmitters and antennas for a given frequency range, also facilitates tailored mission configurations." The only similarity of 1972 and 2012 is the same system designation. With a generation life of 2 years in electronics, this equates to 20 generations of evolution. In 1972 the US was completing building a/c with vacumn tube systems. The -99 is constantly upgraded with technology and tactics.

I looked through various documents to figure out why this is now a $1bn program to outfit 6-12 jets. The unit cost of an "empty" ALQ-99 is under $4m. The modules inside is what costs the money. The module details are classified, although they are definitely not from 1972 and are upgraded regularly. Chances are they'll be upgraded before 2018 anyway.

neptune wrote:

Both the NGJ and the EW system in the F-35/22 were base line developed on the current technological capabilites of the -99. By fielding the EF-18G the RAAF will be one of the most capable airforces with honed skills and technology that will enable their "Tip of the Spear" goals.

From what I've heard, the NGJ will be of similar size and weight as a ALQ-99,and its possible that they may maintain some cross-compatibility of modules so that the "newer" ALQ-99 modules can go in a NGJ Platform.

neptune wrote:

The ISR capabilites of the RAAF EF-18G will be extemely valuable in collecting and analyzing the techniques of their more aggressive neighbors. The USN will provide the latest technologies and upgrades to the RAAF in their role of "frontline" units, if not but for mutually beneficial field testing and verifications. Smile

The AN/ALQ-218 is what is used for ISR/ELINT operations, not the ALQ-99. The integrated ALQ-218 system is what would promote the Growler-Lite hybrid jet. The EA-18 fleet jets can be flown either with a single ALQ-99 centerline, or without the offensive ALQ-99s at all.

Edit: Two minor details. The Su-30MKI does carry the Elta EL/M-8222 pod made by in Israel. According to reports, the last 40 jets use the Zuks-AESA radar in place of the N-011M Bars PESA radar. These 40 Su-30MKI is the only AESA equipped Flanker in service currently. The low number of AESA equipped Sukhoi jets in service would limit the technical obsolescence of the EA-18 platform.

[quote="neurotech"][....The AN/ALQ-218 is what is used for ISR/ELINT operations, not the ALQ-99. ...

Several of the recent defamation comments and articles were against the -99 because of it's 1972 heritage. The -99 is probably one of the most up-to date systems flying, today. It is constantly in revision to keep up with the changing EW threats of technology and tactics. Cool

The ISR system while related is, as you indicated, handled by entirely separate system of sensors, processors and displays. While the RAAF Growler is out "boring holes in the sky", it will be exposed to more diverse RF sources than the USN can consistently access in that AO. This invaluable data will be a welcomed contribution to the systems and databases. Smile

No plans to build F-35 EW variant 24 Aug 2012

http://defensetech.org/2012/08/24/no-pl ... w-variant/

“The Marine Corps has no plans to pursue an Electronic Warfare variant of the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter, said Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos at a Pentagon roundtable Thursday.

Amos said the AN/APG-81 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar installed on the F-35 already sets the fifth generation fighter apart as an electronic warfare platform.

“The airplane itself … with the AESA radar and sensors and information sharing capability is a pretty significant EW platform right now,” said Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos at a roundtable meeting with reporters in the Pentagon Aug. 23....

...The Growler carries up to five ALQ-99 jamming pods as well as AIM-120 AMRAAM or AGM-88 HARM missiles to attack air defenses. Of course, these ALQ-99s are three decades old and the Navy continues to build its Next Generation Jammer that will fool enemy radars with false returns. Amos said he didn’t see any reason the F-35 couldn’t carry these pods too...."

As always complete post is best read at source.

One should be careful choosing a jammer aircraft.
These types tend to be very very long lived additions to whatever service uses them.

It would not be a mistake at all for RAAF to (re-)evaluate the potential capabilities of an additional jammer package for the F-35 instead of full speed committing to F-18 based conversions.

spazsinbad wrote:

...The Growler carries up to five ALQ-99 jamming pods as well as AIM-120 AMRAAM or AGM-88 HARM missiles to attack air defenses. Of course, these ALQ-99s are three decades old and the Navy continues to build its Next Generation Jammer that will fool enemy radars with false returns. Amos said he didn’t see any reason the F-35 couldn’t carry these pods too...."

As always complete post is best read at source.

Spazs... The Australian Growlers, will they have 5 ALQ-99 pods as well?
Suppose so, but it's not quite clear to me,

Nice, Australia is/will be one of the very few top Air Forces with these Growlers.

'm' my knowledge of these issues comes from the internet. What I find I post here. It seems as 'the ONLY other Air Force with Growlers' the RAAF will have a lot to learn, along with synergy with other aircraft such as Wedgetail and including future F-35s. Seems to me that the Supers are here to stay in Oz for some time to come.

Fresh from the InterWeave:

US Navy to supply Australia with refurbished jammers for EA-18Gs By Dave Majumdar
24 Aug 2012

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... gs-375792/

"The US Navy (USN) will dip into its own inventory to supply Australia with the ALQ-99 jammer pods it needs for its future Boeing EA-18G fleet....

...While the low-band transmitter for the ALQ-99 suite is relatively new and in production, the mid-band jammers are not in production.

"We will be teaming with Cobham, Lansdale, Pennsylvania, to deliver low band transmitters to the RAAF [Royal Australian Air Force]," says the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR). "The remainder of the transmitters and ancillary equipment--radomes, hardbacks, ram air turbines and universal exciters--will be provided as refurbished out of USN/USMC [United States Marine Corps] excess inventory."...

..."With the Next Generation Jammer IOC [initial operational capability] scheduled for 2018, we expect that the RAAF, USN and USMC will be using the ALQ-99 pods for one to two years until the USMC retires its ICAP [Improved Capability] III EA-6Bs in 2019," NAVAIR says. That will leave "just the RAAF and the USN as ALQ-99 users until the Next Generation Jammer comes online in adequate numbers for the USN to retire the ALQ-99."

Not much to the article so it is all above.

Last edited by spazsinbad on Aug 26, 2012 - 12:39 AM; edited 2 times in total

Defence to acquire Growler electronic attack capability Utube Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpIq1RQ7 ... L4X3a-e-Gw

"Published on Aug 23, 2012 by AirForceHQ
Australia will acquire the Growler electronic warfare system for Super Hornet which will give the Australian Defence Force the ability to jam the electronics systems of aircraft and land-based radars and communications systems.

It will provide options for the Air Force to undertake electronic threat suppression operations in support of Australian Defence Force operations, including land and sea forces.

The Growler capability can also undertake intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, and will be able to support the full range of Defence tasks from evacuations to major conflicts.

Australia will be the only country in the world, other than the United States, operating Growler aircraft.

Australia has 24 F/A-18F Super Hornets, of which 12 are wired for conversion to Growler.
The purchase of this equipment is being made through the United States Foreign Military Sales process.

The estimated cost of the project is $1.5 billion, which includes funding for the Growler conversion kits, supporting equipment and systems, spares and training and initial training systems.
The Growlers will be available for operations from 2018."

Find out more http://ra.af/Pygdbl wHICH IS: EA-18G GROWLER:

http://www.airforce.gov.au/Technology/F ... FVFKb02OLN

"...The EA-18G Growler is a separate, but complementary, capability for the F/A-18F Super Hornet and the future F-35A (Joint Strike Fighter)...."

http://www.airforce.gov.au/imgs/GrowlerCapacity.jpg

"Communication Countermeasures Set (CCS)
- Smaller and more capable than USQ-113 with expandable infrastructure.
- Transmit function through low-band ALQ-99 jammer pod.

INterference CANcellation System (INCANS)
- Provides UHF communications capability during ALQ-99 jamming.
- Significant communication and situational awareness improvement."

Forum: General F-35 Forum

NGJ Carried by F-35 Early Next Decade (Oz Growler Equip Buy)