Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

warwolf1 wrote:

would it not be better if the f35b is dropped and go for f35c for carriers.x32a for ctol.

Yeah, but then that kinda blows the whole "Joint Strike Fighter" thing outta the water.
(OK, that's my ort for the troll, I'm done.)
fisk

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Well this is definitely the most entertaining thread in a while. Are there any actual sources even hinting at a higher-performing production F-32A?

fiskerwad wrote:

warwolf1 wrote:

would it not be better if the f35b is dropped and go for f35c for carriers.x32a for ctol.

Yeah, but then that kinda blows the whole "Joint Strike Fighter" thing outta the water.
(OK, that's my ort for the troll, I'm done.)
fisk

Ort??? Fisk, you must be a crossword puzzle worker.

johnwill wrote:

fiskerwad wrote:

warwolf1 wrote:

would it not be better if the f35b is dropped and go for f35c for carriers.x32a for ctol.

Yeah, but then that kinda blows the whole "Joint Strike Fighter" thing outta the water.
(OK, that's my ort for the troll, I'm done.)
fisk

Ort??? Fisk, you must be a crossword puzzle worker.

Oops, probably should have elided over that part? haha
Yeah, I do them in English and Spanish although not usually both in the same puzzle.
fisk

archeman wrote:

Better for who??? It wouldn't be better for the customers, because they are ordering what they WANT. Is it that you don't want them to want it?

OK -- I think I get it now warwolf and jayraptor.
Your monitors are both broken, and all you can do is type but not read???
Aren't you seeing what is in the responses already??
X-32 is dead dead dead.

I can't tell if this is serious or not?
No one is holding anyone back. Boeing doesn't want to build the X-32 because there is no buyer. That is smart business. Boeing has buyers for other products in their vast lineup of products, and they are hard at work trying to deliver those on time and to requirements. See how that works? Now they could take your advice and pull a bunch of their top people off projects with customers to pursue an incredibly expensive pipe dream for a product that nobody is asking for.

I do read & follow up with the F-35s latest news. It's not that the X-32 doesn't have buyer. THing is the X-32 if converted to F-32, if it has stealth, it will have lots of restriction and will only be allowed to sell to countries that are already stuck with F-35 purchase. If it is low RCS conventional, then Boeing would have freedom in selling F-32 and at the same time, it could put F-35 sales in jeopardy if the F-32 performs way better than F-35s it will cause billions of losses to LM and middleman.

No matter how good the F-32 is, the F-35B V/STOL variant will not be cancelled as it has the most perfect V/STOL today. What you don't understand is the F-32 is suitable for Airforce while F-35B for Marines and F-35C for Navy. Understand? The Marines and Navy would need conventional low RCS variant for carrying weapons externally best use where ordnance quantity matters.

You don't understand the underlying nature of FMS. It is not that simple.

Jay, what "middleman" would be involved in and lose from your proposed F32 sales?

jayraptor wrote:

archeman wrote:

X-32 is dead dead dead.

I can't tell if this is serious or not?
No one is holding anyone back. Boeing doesn't want to build the X-32 because there is no buyer. That is smart business. Boeing has buyers for other products in their vast lineup of products, and they are hard at work trying to deliver those on time and to requirements. See how that works? Now they could take your advice and pull a bunch of their top people off projects with customers to pursue an incredibly expensive pipe dream for a product that nobody is asking for.

What you don't understand is the F-32 is suitable for Airforce while F-35B for Marines and F-35C for Navy. Understand? The Marines and Navy would need conventional low RCS variant for carrying weapons externally best use where ordnance quantity matters.

Jayraptor-- Let me explain my smart-a$$ comments to your X-32 posts. When you say above that the F-32 is suitable for the US Air Force, you are making that statement as if it is a fact. Then you use that 'fact' to underpin subsequent arguments about re-organization of the JSF aircraft purchases and distribution between the various services and then start going on about how upset that is going to make LM and undercut the F-35 sales futures and foreign sales etc. etc.

There is no F-32, nor is there a project team dedicated and working to create an F-32.

This enormous F-35 project that has been going on for the last decade give or take has all been focused on converting the X-35 into an F-35. As you can see that has been a huge task filled with sufficient pain and suffering to collapse poor Job many times over. So the X-32 is still an X-32 and never went any further. There is a giant gulf between those X-32 museum pieces and the F-32 your thinking of.

So your factual sounding statements about an F-32 and what Boeing could possibly do with it all require a working F-32 Plan, Project, Buyer to be anything other than daydreams.

Perhaps you could rephrase your questions/statements with the opening line "Wouldn't it be cool if..." Then the things your thinking of wouldn't be so quickly attacked because your clearly not presenting them as assertions of fact.

This forum is all about airplane nuts and speaking for myself I have those "Wouldn't it be cool if...." ideas -- all the time.

Reply to Sufa Viper posted on the thread that was locked:

"Your criminal trial is a terrible analogy to the X-32 vs. X-35 competition. Neither X-32, nor the X-35 was on trial. But for the sake of argument lets say the JPO grants a 6 month extension to the competition for both teams so that Boeing can complete their lengthened design. Now Boeing has a complete design, but LM found a way to greatly improve the X-35 performance, but they need more time. Does JPO grant another extension? If not, the competition clearly favored Boeing and LM will sue, if so then what if Boeing comes up with another new concept that it needs more time on. Either option leads to delays in the selection of the aircraft and never gives the war fighter what they need."
>> If they planned for just the lengthened X-32, the time allocated is mainly for that. That is the last chance for Boeing. Talking about running short of time, isn't the JSF program got delayed for few years already despite the Congress kept saying NO TIME.

"To further the analogy: I rowed in college, my team was ok during the body of the race, but we had great closing speed, on several occasions we lost races by a single stroke, if you extended the race 10m we would have won a great deal more races. Should the officials have extended the race, because we were closing so wonderfully?"
>> What do you think this is? Sports and military development are totally different thing. But the X-32 case seems more like you don't have time to prepare the boat to row at all.

Boeing is free to develop the F-32A and sell it to allies, but it must get approval from congress and the DoD for every sell, just like every other aircraft sold to a foreign military. Nothing is stopping Boeing from developing, building and marketing the F-32.
>> Oh really, including selling to Iran? Do you know it's not that easy for US aircraft manufacturers to sell their products, even to allies. Since there's F-35, do you think the Congress would allow Boeing to come up with their own JSF and sell to NATO competing LM that gives them commission?

"As for McDD, what happened there is they didn’t innovate their commercial line, and somehow Boeing beat them in the JSF, I still think it should have been LM and McDD for the final JSF competition, I think McDD design was better than Boeings and would have been a better challenger to LM. McD and Douglas did build a lot of fighters and bombers, but why go after LM for not making as many fighters as McDD? If you were going to go after one of the two you should have gone after Boeing. What is the last war-bird built by Boeing? LM has the P-38, P-80, F-104, T-50, and F-22 (along with the F-16, F-111, F-117, SR-71, U-2, ect.) Finally, Boeing still had the F-15, F-18, C-17, V-22, and several UAV’s, they are fine in the military aviation. Boeing has many very powerful political connections as well, don’t be naïve and assume LM has a corner on the market. Actually Boeing is one of the worst,.."
>> I don't really favor Boeing anyway but I only support Boeing today because Mc'D was absorbed into Boeing together with most of the talented engineers. When you compare Mc'D with LM, can't you tell that Mc'D has more experience in building many practical aircrafts that could be used in war? Killing Mc'D is like heartless US government dismantling the WW2 USS Enterprise that saved US Navy without being appreciated despite the effort it placed. F-15/18 will be phased out soon, that means Boeing's military division that made up of Mc'D remnants only rely will have nothing left at the end and shut down. Boeing could still survive on its civilian airliner alone.

archeman wrote:

Jayraptor-- Let me explain my smart-a$$ comments to your X-32 posts. When you say above that the F-32 is suitable for the US Air Force, you are making that statement as if it is a fact. Then you use that 'fact' to underpin subsequent arguments about re-organization of the JSF aircraft purchases and distribution between the various services and then start going on about how upset that is going to make LM and undercut the F-35 sales futures and foreign sales etc. etc.

There is no F-32, nor is there a project team dedicated and working to create an F-32.

This enormous F-35 project that has been going on for the last decade give or take has all been focused on converting the X-35 into an F-35. As you can see that has been a huge task filled with sufficient pain and suffering to collapse poor Job many times over. So the X-32 is still an X-32 and never went any further. There is a giant gulf between those X-32 museum pieces and the F-32 your thinking of.

So your factual sounding statements about an F-32 and what Boeing could possibly do with it all require a working F-32 Plan, Project, Buyer to be anything other than daydreams.

Perhaps you could rephrase your questions/statements with the opening line "Wouldn't it be cool if..." Then the things your thinking of wouldn't be so quickly attacked because your clearly not presenting them as assertions of fact.

This forum is all about airplane nuts and speaking for myself I have those "Wouldn't it be cool if...." ideas -- all the time.

Mc'D winded up and absorbed into Boeing's military R&D. Fyi, Mc'D has more experience in building fighters than LM. They way you talked about current Boeing with Mc'D DNA is like they have "ZERO" experience in building fighters at all. How sure are you that the extended X-32 aka production model F-32 could not perform better than F-35 in reality?

THings that aren't yet built is always "Wouldn't it be good" but it will be good should things turn out the way it wanted to be. Even if it doesn't at least there's effort placed where the result and achievement could be saved for future reference. Might be useful.

Fyi, the cheap lousy A-4 Skyhawk, product of Mc'D managed to bomb British destroyer with Mk82 unguided iron bombs. US imposed arms embargo on spare parts to Argentina because it opposed UK, the US's ally. It was all aspect AIM-9L that helped British won the war, not just their Harriers. The USAF didn't even want to fly LM's F-104 crap in Vietnam yet went for Mc'D F-4 instead.

If too many passionate US scientists and engineers that got laid off mainly because of Congress having mentality like yours, will it be OK for you to let them work for China that could pay them multiplied wages? Like Thomas Edison turned his back towards UK and turned to US and formed GE? Since you said YF-23 and X-32 are inferior junks that won't be able to compete with LM's overpriced superior products, anything wrong YF-23 converted to J23 and X-32 converted to J32 flying red orange stars? Maybe with moon crescent too for export models. Then we'll get to see real J-23/32 vs F-22/35 in reality to get 100% accurate result.

Can anybody make any sense of this gibberish?

Best ignore him.

Every response empowers him..

Pop, you're right. Sometimes some of us still fall into that trap. There are a few here who make an honest effort to share good knowledge, not saying I'm one, but there comes a time to throw in the towel. Some people refuse to be educated. That time for Jay is long past.

JetTest wrote:

Can anybody make any sense of this gibberish?

Not really, no.

Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

Making the X-32 fly-worthy