Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Black program F-22's would have been awesome. Sorry, we can neither confirm nor deny that we have a stealth super fighter.

I've been up close to the thing. The finish work is severely beyond the competition. Even up close the skin looks CGI. It's like nothing else out there.

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I still wish the Keystone Kopps had gotten their wish when it came to RAAF F-22s, but I guess the F-35 is second best. Better than Eurofighters or Su-35s (yes, those supposedly were offered Laughing

).

cola wrote:

jeffb wrote:

Are the losses reductions made in comparison to current, legacy, equipment?
If so, then this is a sobering read indeed and much more tied to reality.

The first pitch to sell F-22s to Australia was made in 1999 and I assume that this slide came from that effort and not the later one that was (allegedly) made in 2006. The first S-300PMU-1/2 (SA-20) started appearing during the early 1990s so it should be safe to assume that any marketing information would include references to those latest threats.

Edit: Here's an interesting read from way back in 1996...
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lockheed-martin-hopes-for-f-22-export-approval-soon-9822/

I think this is actually LM's first PR release (that I saw), that makes sense.

cywolf32 wrote:

They do not have the funds or resources to do so.

Even if they have the funds or resources I don't think Brits would pay so much money for a fighter they don't need.. Not to mention the results of the last mockup fights with German Typhoons which gave the Raptor hard times. Imagine the future Typhoon in 2-3 years with AESA and Meteor !! so where is the need?

Very few countries have the need or budget for a dedicated air superiority fighter. Maybe Japan and Israel would want the Raptor. It's possible the Saudis would want the Raptor (and they're not going to get it!).

The UK, Canada and Australia don't have any hostile neighbors. It's unlikely they'll get into a major conflict with a dangerous adversary on their own. It will almost certainly be in the context of a coalition. Canada and Australia never even bought the F-15.

The UK, Canada and Australia do have hostile neighbors. UK- Russia. Canada-Russia. the Australians- china. OK if it is a coalition will the Americans send the entire fleet of f22s to Europe if Russia decides to take a stroll to the English channel,the med and the Atlantic.no they wont Obama wont help we would have to face the Russians on our own. the f35 is good but the Russian surface to air missiles will kill it before it gets close. the ef2000 good dog fighter but if overwhelmed it will get killed. Europe would have to use nukes but using them will escalate it beyond any way to stop it.

Quote:

Not to mention the results of the last mockup fights with German Typhoons which gave the Raptor hard times.

You're going to have to provide a reference to back this up.

discofishing wrote:

Quote:

Not to mention the results of the last mockup fights with German Typhoons which gave the Raptor hard times.

You're going to have to provide a reference to back this up.

He's referring to the recent story where Typhoons completely stripped of pylons, weapons, external fuel tanks, flew WVR against Raptors, and managed not to embarass themselves too badly.

Not only flew WVR, but were limited to guns only.

wrightwing wrote:

discofishing wrote:

Quote:

Not to mention the results of the last mockup fights with German Typhoons which gave the Raptor hard times.

You're going to have to provide a reference to back this up.

He's referring to the recent story where Typhoons completely stripped of pylons, weapons, external fuel tanks, flew WVR against Raptors, and managed not to embarass themselves too badly.

Since the Raptor pilots were ordered to ditch the anti-G vests just prior to the Red Flag, I'm wondering what effects such restriction might have on the maneuvering in the WVR fight.

First of all, US could not even 100% confirm that other countries have procured stealth technology. Already, they are willing to sell stealth F-35 with generation 2 stealth layers to friendlies. That would only eventually leaked out stealth technology voluntarily. F-22, US would sell them when stealth is no longer exclusive to US, depends on how soon Russia and China could prove that they really own stealth aircrafts. Best way to find out is via intrusion.

I think they should build conventional variant F-22 and F-35 with low RCS minus internal bay. It will make the F-22/35 more agile, lighter, faster and affordable yet consume less fuel. F-15/16/18 are aging and less maneuverable compared to Russian counterpart, it is time to replace with numbers of stealth and conventional F-22/35. It is not right to have all stealth variants only. Imagine you have unfriendly neigbour that has more tanks and soldiers than you outnumbering you by 10:1. Do you expect to use stealth F-35 with just 2 air to air and 2 air to ground ordnance or 4 air to ground ordnance to destroy that many tanks, AAAs, SAMs and structures at the same time?

1 single generation 2 stealth panel is not cheap neither, imported directly from LM based in US. They won't give you the ingredient to replicate 1. So whenever the F-22/35 had damaged stealth layer panel took a hit from AAA or over-G at high speed, isn't it a dear price to pay? Also the unnecessary less durable electronic gadgets that do not increase your survival rate but instead to give you a feel of high tech and luxurious high class such as touchscreen & computer controlled hatch/canopy that the F-22 pilot stuck for 1 whole day waiting to be rescued. Where is the practicality?

If you have 12 stealth F-22s and 12 conventional low RCS F-22s, for deep interdiction strike, you may fly the stealth variant. But when comes to intercept incoming bombers and cruise missiles, you fly the conventional variant F-22 armed with large long range Mach5+ air to air missiles like BVRAAM with ramjet? Also to attack large invading army with tanks protected by AAAs and SAMs, the conventional variant armed with 12 AGM-65G could take out the tanks whereas the stealth variant would conduct SEAD. What do you guys think?

I would have no problem selling the F-22 to the Brits, Canadians, Aussies, and and Japanese.

Personally, I'd have no problems selling them to the Israelis since they'd certainly be used against countries that would just assume see us burn anyway. That's certainly not going to happen under the current regime.

As for the "black option" on disclosing the plane's existence, that was never going to happen. Too much money involved in this one. Plus, on some levels, at least during peace, you WANT the enemy to know you have the biggest stick in the fight. Deterrence. The problems is, we got stupid and stopped at 187, which is probably about 250 short of the worldwide requirement. So the big stick has a pretty limited distribution. Giving the Brits, Canadians, Aussies, and Japanese a few squadrons each would have mitigated this quantitative deficiency somewhat IMO. Of course marketing and corporate profits became more important than capability, so we all have the F-35 instead.

The problem is that the coating maintenance. I'm not sure any other country would put up with that cost.

jayraptor wrote:

First of all, US could not even 100% confirm that other countries have procured stealth technology. Already, they are willing to sell stealth F-35 with generation 2 stealth layers to friendlies. That would only eventually leaked out stealth technology voluntarily. F-22, US would sell them when stealth is no longer exclusive to US, depends on how soon Russia and China could prove that they really own stealth aircrafts. Best way to find out is via intrusion.

I think they should build conventional variant F-22 and F-35 with low RCS minus internal bay. It will make the F-22/35 more agile, lighter, faster and affordable yet consume less fuel. F-15/16/18 are aging and less maneuverable compared to Russian counterpart, it is time to replace with numbers of stealth and conventional F-22/35. It is not right to have all stealth variants only. Imagine you have unfriendly neigbour that has more tanks and soldiers than you outnumbering you by 10:1. Do you expect to use stealth F-35 with just 2 air to air and 2 air to ground ordnance or 4 air to ground ordnance to destroy that many tanks, AAAs, SAMs and structures at the same time?

1 single generation 2 stealth panel is not cheap neither, imported directly from LM based in US. They won't give you the ingredient to replicate 1. So whenever the F-22/35 had damaged stealth layer panel took a hit from AAA or over-G at high speed, isn't it a dear price to pay? Also the unnecessary less durable electronic gadgets that do not increase your survival rate but instead to give you a feel of high tech and luxurious high class such as touchscreen & computer controlled hatch/canopy that the F-22 pilot stuck for 1 whole day waiting to be rescued. Where is the practicality?

If you have 12 stealth F-22s and 12 conventional low RCS F-22s, for deep interdiction strike, you may fly the stealth variant. But when comes to intercept incoming bombers and cruise missiles, you fly the conventional variant F-22 armed with large long range Mach5+ air to air missiles like BVRAAM with ramjet? Also to attack large invading army with tanks protected by AAAs and SAMs, the conventional variant armed with 12 AGM-65G could take out the tanks whereas the stealth variant would conduct SEAD. What do you guys think?

To your final question...I think your post is rather bizarre. Its full of inaccuracy's and expensive/crazy idea's. Before replying, can you confirm you are not 13 years old sitting in front of a video game console?

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

should usa export f 22 to trusted allys.