Forum: Program and politics

SLDinfo looks at the Brits and possible SPliT BuY...

UK, F-35 and Strategy
http://www.sldinfo.com/wp-content/uploa ... rategy.pdf (1Mb)

The UK, the F-35 and Strategic Considerations 2012-08-03 by Robbin Laird
http://www.sldinfo.com/the-uk-the-f-35- ... derations/

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personally f 35a for royal air force. b for navy till first overhaul when we can install cats and traps.then shift the b to ocean and other marines.

I have never heard anyone mention that the F-35B can be operated from HMS Ocean, which I believe is due to be replaced soon? What other marines?

The option to install Cats on the new carriers has been dropped, the costs of conversion are too prohibitive and are much higher than the original estimates by BAE.

Oceans deck is afaik not capable of operating jet aircraft, the deck has not been designed to take the jet blast.

HMS Ocean is being kept operational as a Helicopter Carrier, she is less than 15 years old. It was a choice was between her and Illustrious at the last defence review... Ocean won.

Andy

Last edited by spazsinbad on Aug 04, 2012 - 12:23 AM; edited 3 times in total

[edit] 'boff180' apologies this comment should be directed to 'warwolf1' - there is a long running thread about the 'flip-flopping' on F-35Bs/F-35Cs/F-35Bs for UK on this forum (MOD in a Muddle) - what happens down the track is probably unforeseeable regarding any conversion to 'catflaps' Very Happy

:

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-15969.html

[edit] 'boff180': Any idea when HMS Ocean will be replaced by whatever?

I doubt it will be sadly. Eventually it will be retired and scrapped, the role being split between the QE Class and the Type 26.

I foresee a future post 2020 Royal Navy consisting of the following capital ships...

QE Class Carrier *2
Type 45 Daring Class Destroyer *6
Type 26 Frigate *13 (this type, currently being designed, has a built in amphibious capability)
Albion Class *2 (only one in operation at a time as per current ops, the two ships Albion and Bulwark will last until atleast 2040)
Astute Class SSN *7
Vanguard Replacement SSBN *4
Ocean Class *1 (to be retired sometime between 2020 and 2025)

Andy

FlightDreamz wrote:

Uh oh, don't look know Spaz but I think you've picked up Popcorn's case of the stutters! Shocked

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery Very Happy

Great, now I'm contagious as well..

WOT? Only one reply? I guess popcorn doan pop twice no more? Cheers

Corny huh. Rolling Eyes

spazsinbad wrote:

WOT? Only one reply? I guess popcorn doan pop twice no more? Cheers

Corny huh. Rolling Eyes

I think keeping away from the "quick reply"button helps.. like the USAF, am confident I have identified the cause of the problem ... fingers crossed.. Very Happy

Crossed Fingers? Fingers inserted somewhere else methinks. Very Happy

warwolf1 wrote:

personally f 35a for royal air force. b for navy till first overhaul when we can install cats and traps.then shift the b to ocean and other marines.

Going cats/traps is dead - it's not happening not now, not as part of a first overhaul and I strongly doubt it'll happen ever. Once they're built, I think it'd be cheaper to build new ones than convert them, given the staggering estimates for doing the work while they're under construction.

Shame..

Wonder why the cost skyrocketed so much,when there was room left in the design for catapults & traps to begin with? I know the electro-magnetic catapult is still in trials and not in full production yet but still.....
Glad Britain has the opportunity to use F-35B's on both carriers, but on the other hand I was looking forward to seeing them use E-2D Hawkeye's - using a helicopter as an AWAC just doesn't cut it. Maybe someone will fast track converting a V-22 into a AWAC now.

FlightDreamz wrote:

Wonder why the cost skyrocketed so much,when there was room left in the design for catapults & traps to begin with? I know the electro-magnetic catapult is still in trials and not in full production yet but still.....
Glad Britain has the opportunity to use F-35B's on both carriers, but on the other hand I was looking forward to seeing them use E-2D Hawkeye's - using a helicopter as an AWAC just doesn't cut it. Maybe someone will fast track converting a V-22 into a AWAC now.

My understanding is that the original estimate to do a CATOBAR conversion was not based on any serious study and it was only when the decision was made to switch to the C variant that they realized that they had seriously underestimated the complexity and costs involved. The CVF design turned out not to be as conversion-friendly as they had thought.

FlightDreamz wrote:

Wonder why the cost skyrocketed so much,when there was room left in the design for catapults & traps to begin with?.

As I understand it there were three main factors that led to the underestimate of costs and the reverse-reversal of direction .

1) The QE ship design isn't so much ship design, as it is compartments design. So think leggo blocks and the contracts and construction design plans with shipyards for those blocks prior to final assembly. Some earlier reviews had underestimated the quantity of blocks that would have to be modified in order to accept EMALS and traps. When the real estimates came in the modification price was prohibitive.
2) There was an amateurish estimate done for the expected cost of the EMALS launch system. Someone had counted the number of launchers on the US Ford class carriers gathered some $ cost figures and performed simple division (fewer launchers on QE) to reach a cost estimate for the Queen Elizabeth EMALS conversion. In doing this they failed to understand that the EMALS is a complete system with some components being far more expensive than others. You can't count the rail launchers on the top deck then divide the entire system cost to find your cost, as some parts aren't divisible and you have to buy them in their entirety no matter how many launchers you have.
3) One of the publicly described reasons for the conversion to launchers and traps for QE was the greatly expanded flexibility that England would gain by having mixed operations with French carriers. That could be possible for French aircraft to land and launch on QE, but it wouldn't work the other way. The F-35C is too heavy for the Charles de Gaulle. So that dream of interoperability evaporated upon closer inspection.

FlightDreamz wrote:

on the other hand I was looking forward to seeing them use E-2D Hawkeye's - using a helicopter as an AWAC just doesn't cut it. Maybe someone will fast track converting a V-22 into a AWAC now.

I believe the E-2D is still being plugged (there is current development work ongoing into it being ramp capable) however, without arrester wires this looks unlikely.

My preference would be for an AWACs Osprey however purchase of this is looking very unlikely. There is now an AWACS version of the Merlin (in operational use with Italy), due to commonality with the rest of the Merlin fleet, this is looking the most likely purchase.

Andy

Forum: Program and politics

UK slashes F-35B numbers but might look to split buy F-35As