Forum: General F-35 Forum

at least according to this article:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/12/top-f ... e-the-sky/

Quote:

1. The planes will be cheaper … eventually
2. It’s stealthier than any other plane on the planet
(Me: Stealthier than the F-22 and the B2??)
3. Its infrared tracking is so precise, it picks up its own shadow … from 45,000 feet in the air
4. It comes with an awesome helmet
5. It smokes the competition

See also this article:

Foreign buyers expected to buy more F-35s than Pentagon

http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/11/forei ... z20WHtxX7a

Quote:

As Lockheed Martin, the world’s largest manufacturer for the defense industry, edges closer to launching the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, experts are predicting international buyers will outpace the United States and Pentagon in sales as early as 2014.

Two very upbeat assessments from the same writer, except for this tidbit below. She's apparently aware of the CNO's Proceedings article, as I guess everyone on the planet who's following the project is aware by now:

Quote:

In the United States, the planes are expected to outfit the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps. Chief of Naval Operations Jonathan Greenert announced Monday that the Navy is not fully committed to the F-35, however, adding speculation that the Pentagon may be backing further away from the purchasing the fighters.

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stereospace wrote:

at least according to this article:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/12/top-f ... e-the-sky/

Quote:

1. The planes will be cheaper … eventually
2. It’s stealthier than any other plane on the planet
(Me: Stealthier than the F-22 and the B2??)
3. Its infrared tracking is so precise, it picks up its own shadow … from 45,000 feet in the air
4. It comes with an awesome helmet
5. It smokes the competition

I don't think the author is familiar with...combat aircraft, period. That's a common affliction of the journalist. The F-22 and B-2 are almost certainly 'stealthier'. I also don't consider the helmet especially awesome...

It took a while to find "It seems clear the answer is yes. And even if it is not, the Chief's article...." the opinion piece (http://www.aei.org/article/foreign-and-defense-policy/defense/cno-ready-to-cut-back-on-f-35-joint-strike-fighter/) as the reference. With the first 4 F-35Cs in LRIP 4 (due next year 2013), we will see if the Navy changes any of it's LO plans. In light of the plans from 2001 onwards, the three services, it is anticipated would only reduce their orders. That said, any new orders will be from foreign airforces and will add to the total count (obviously!!!) but many years out the existing partner orders start completing and the AF and Marine orders will still continue, ending with the AF only (2K+ a/c). I see the media adding orders for Israel and Japan but DOD and LM have not indicated when and where the production schedule changes for any production impacts after LRIP 7. The last schedule was indicated in 2009, which currently is leading to a huge increase (tripling??) to achieve 2009 numbers for completion in 2036 of all (3K+) a/c; " IMHO, it's not going to happen".

Tail-less B-2 is definitely stealthier, even if F-22 is not.

They both are stealthier than the F-35. Remember the whole golf-ball - marble analogy?

Last edited by popcorn on Jul 14, 2012 - 04:44 AM; edited 2 times in total

From memory, ranking was
Raptor
F-35
B-2
F-117

(Post edited)

Question: do we actually know what the real RCS of the F-117, B-2, F-22, and F-35 are, or are we just basing evaluations off of published requirements?

count_to_10 wrote:

Question: do we actually know what the real RCS of the F-117, B-2, F-22, and F-35 are, or are we just basing evaluations off of published requirements?

On this or any other similar site, all observations damn sure better be the latter. Anyone who has ever been "read on" with a high clearance, should be sufficiently intimidated by the frankness of that brief that they wouldn't dare talk about anything more than the published requirements and open source conjecture.

redbird87 wrote:

count_to_10 wrote:

Question: do we actually know what the real RCS of the F-117, B-2, F-22, and F-35 are, or are we just basing evaluations off of published requirements?

On this or any other similar site, all observations damn sure better be the latter. Anyone who has ever been "read on" with a high clearance, should be sufficiently intimidated by the frankness of that brief that they wouldn't dare talk about anything more than the published requirements and open source conjecture.

So we really only have upper bounds to any given number.
That makes comparisons entirely unreliable. For all we know, the F-35's RCS could be smaller than the F-22 (unlikely as it is), and they just aren't telling us.

Yep. Plus there are so many variables. Perhaps the F-35s frontal RCS is as good or better, but the 22 has it beat at most other angles? Perhaps the one is better against higher frequency radars, but the other has an advantage against lower frequency search radars? Maybe it's not even close and one aircraft is way better in all LO respects? Who knows? I don't want to know, unless I'm called back into that line of work and have a need to know.

I think it is logical to assume that based on the F-117's age and retirement, and the fact that the Serbians were evidently able to figure out how to track and engage it with modified SA-3s thirteen years ago, that its stealth was probably not as good as the F-22 and F-35.

That episode however, is what gives me pause when I hear this "Why the F-35 will rule the sky" business. If you know what critical high value assets you need to defend, and the range of the attacker's ordnance, then it is not difficult to determine what the logical air avenues of approach are going to be. Then you can layer defenses to maximize your chances to shoot them down. You can even shape the electronic and physical battlefield to some extent and dictate to the attacking pilots their approach parameters. And I promise you, as someone who used to train them in this very business, that western pilots tend to fall into the trap of becoming very predictable over multiple missions. Maybe in the 21st century our SEAD techniques and stand-off weapons will be so lethal it won't matter, but the enemy always has a vote. Never underestimate their ability to innovate.

All of you assume that F-35 is all about LO a la F-117. The public record suggests otherwise.

A few thousand sorties into the teeth of many beasts and someone finally bags one F-117 -- woohoo. Do we really know why? No, we don't.

LO is just that -- Low Observable -- not, N-O, as in 'not observable.' LO doesn't make one immune to threat systems.

We do know why:

1. Flew the same rout repeatedly
2. Trap laid in path with observers along the way
3. Turned on the radar when they heard it near
4. Launched 2+ missiles and hit it with only one at, here is the key, 13km away!
5. Only hit one out of the 8 x F-117s in the flight.

Nobody in the aviation community seriously expects ANY plane, VLO or not, to survive if it gets this close.

The F-35 is probably going to rule the sky due to the sheer lack of selection in 5th generation platforms. Right now, there are about 8 or 9 front-line fighters in production and available purchase by anyone desiring first-class, bleeding-edge hardware. In 15 years, it might just be the F-35 depending on whether the Russian/Chinese offerings are available for general export as well. This does not mean that other (older) fighters won't continue to find customers, but those wanting the absolute latest will find their options much more limited than today.

southernphantom wrote:

I also don't consider the helmet especially awesome...

Maybe because you haven't flown with one or experienced DAS imagery at night? The pilots seem to really like them once they get used to them.

stereospace wrote:

Foreign buyers expected to buy more F-35s than Pentagon
http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/11/forei ... z20WHtxX7a

Quote:

As Lockheed Martin, the world’s largest manufacturer for the defense industry, edges closer to launching the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, experts are predicting international buyers will outpace the United States and Pentagon in sales as early as 2014.

Couldn't this just reflect that, with the production restrictions in place till 2014(?) and with the ramp to full production starting after that, that foreign purchasers will get the lion's share of aircraft built up till then?

Forum: General F-35 Forum

Why The F-35 Will Rule the Sky...