Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Quote:

Last week, we were inclined to say this plane was simply a Hondgu L-15 trainer jet being transported accross China via a flatebed truck. Some readers were skeptical, saying that it looked more like the stealth F-60 that China’s Shenyang aircraft-maker is rumored to be building. Well, new pics emerged over the weekend that show an aircraft that has us rethinking our initial call.

As you can see from these new pics, it appears that the mystery jet has air intakes that do indeed resemble those shown on a mock up of the F-60 (see below), it’s wing flaps also seem t resemble the F-60, and the cockpit, well, you be the judge.

Click through the jump to see an overhead view of the mystery jet that also resembles the F-60 as well as a picture of a model F-60 that strongly resembles a smaller version of an F-22 Raptor (with different air intakes and engine nozzles, etc.) I’m not even gonna say it.

If this veiled jet really is the F-60 (it could be another airplane or just a large mock up of the F-60), China might be on track to to reveal two new types of stealth fighters in less than two years.

Read more: http://defensetech.org/2012/06/25/maybe ... z1zrwKV5D9
Defense.org

The photo of the model at the bottom of the page bears an uncanny resemblance to an F-22. [/quote]

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I'm not doubting the significance of the RSA/LMT/NG security breaches, but the F-22 is not a 'shell' of an aircraft. There is so much highly classified code for those jets that the Chinese never got close to the sources, it would be doubtful they could 'copy' a F-22 with fidelity if they wanted to. Also, making minor changes to the aircraft design, can seriously change the VLO profile.

Some of the early F-22s and F/A-18Fs are maintenance airframes or training jets, is partially due to changes in RCS between LRIP batches. Also due to structural fatigue reasons. I don't believe the Chinese have caught up to us in metallurgy or composite manufacturing technology.

Planform Alignment is very poor on that plane. It looks like it can be detected. Anything on that jet's 6 o'clock has 100% chance of blowing it out of the sky. Note also how the wings appear to be copies of the prototype Raptor, the YF-22.

Defensive fighters don't care about 6 o'clock.
It's easy to keep secret of RAM, but radar deflection shape, you have nowhere to hide. Plenty of high definition pictures for others to study your design details. If you can tell how good or bad a fighter can be detected from one mere picture, so can they.

And it's not totally resemblance, I can't help wonder, if Lockheed Martin designs the F-22 with today's knowledge, will they also consider the bump inlet. If you don't think so, check Boeing's F/A-XX.

LM has only come out with a since illustration, IIRC, on its 6th gen ideas.

Just an obeservation, the supposed F-60's wing is mid-fuselage where as current 5th gen wingsets are further back, almost a delta. Is this configuration indicative of less technlogical advancment or as mentioned earlier a trainer or other aircraft type?

Whatever the mystery aircraft reveals, one thing is certain the Chinese are trying to be competitive. As an aviation enthusiest I am thrilled, as a geo-political observer not so much.

To me, it looks like it doesn't have it's ailerons or flaperons attached to the wing so it looks more like the old McD JSF concept minus the incomplete tail section.

I'm also noting how crudely they've loaded and transported this mockup(?). The size seems to indicate it's JSF-class / competitor instead of F-22-class / competitor.

Yes, that's true.
It's said that J-20 is the winner for China air force 5G fighter. This is a self-fund project aiming to be a smaller supplementary to J-20.
It's said to be on its way from manufactory to static testing facility.

megasun wrote:

Defensive fighters don't care about 6 o'clock.
It's easy to keep secret of RAM, but radar deflection shape, you have nowhere to hide. Plenty of high definition pictures for others to study your design details.

Entirely wrong on both points. To an aircraft significantly above or below, the cylindrical engine sleeves on the F-60 mockup will be radar beacons, even from the front. It's not that a defensive fighter doesn't care about its six, it's that they don't think they can manufacture a viable plane without Saturn-clone engines in a very exposed location. Since they can't manufacture a real stealth aircraft anyway, a couple of large radar reflectors on them isn't really a big problem, as long as they look "stealthy." Hangar queens that are down for several days every few flights, when one of their lousy engines needs work and it's not easy to get at the engine, that would be a problem they can't afford.

And pictures don't actually give you a stealth fighter's shape, not where it matters. They don't show the placement or shape of the antenna cavities under narrow bandpass windows, the internal RAM channels hidden under radar-transparent aerodynamic fairings, etc. Even the F-117 had some deep-channel RAM under the wing's leading edge that can't be seen in pictures, and that's three decades out of date. What something modern has under the skin is anybody's guess.

Quote:

If you can tell how good or bad a fighter can be detected from one mere picture, so can they.

Well, it's good thing we can't tell a plane's radar signature from one mere picture, then. You can tell when a design is obviously bad, like when the F-60 mockup has cylindrical fairings on its engines. But telling if a plane is actually good, that's not possible from a few external pictures. It can look good and still not be.

river_otter wrote:

But telling if a plane is actually good, that's not possible from a few external pictures. It can look good and still not be.

Like the J-20, perhaps?

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

I'm also noting how crudely they've loaded and transported this mockup(?).

That's what I'm thinking, it's probably an RCS or structural test vehicle with no more representative working components than a shadow of a man represents him.

But, while our Raptor is flying in the sky blasting things and evolving, theirs is being (amateurly) lugged around by a flat bed truck. I'm not so worried.

firstimpulse wrote:

river_otter wrote:

But telling if a plane is actually good, that's not possible from a few external pictures. It can look good and still not be.

Like the J-20, perhaps?

If you think something with large lifting canards looks like good stealth maybe.

PhillyGuy wrote:

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

I'm also noting how crudely they've loaded and transported this mockup(?).

That's what I'm thinking, it's probably an RCS or structural test vehicle with no more representative working components than a shadow of a man represents him.

But, while our Raptor is flying in the sky blasting things and evolving, theirs is being (amateurly) lugged around by a flat bed truck. I'm not so worried.

I like to watch you guys commenting on this new aircraft, or others, although little is known. But I keep feeling some "arrogance" here and there, sorry.

There happen to be a news recently that X-47B is shipped from west coast to east coast Navy testing site, on a large truck, with a few pictures.

http://defensetech.org/2012/06/14/x-47b ... ast-coast/

There ya go! lol

j20 won't be in active service in next 30 years. f-60 will nerver.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

China's F-60, Nearly Identical to F-22