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popcorn
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Posted: Jul 07, 2012 - 03:53 PM
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Elite 2K

Joined: Sep 24, 2008 - 09:55 AM
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SpudmanWP wrote:
They have not designed anything new or groundbreaking in a long time. Even when they tried, they got it wrong (X-32).
The,last fighter designed in-house was actually innovative.. in it's day. |
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Sponsor
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Posted: May 21, 2013 - 4:51 PM
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F-16.net Sponsor
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geogen
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Posted: Jul 08, 2012 - 12:05 AM
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Elite 2K

Joined: Mar 11, 2008 - 03:28 PM
Posts: 2804
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m,
I completely agree that any hypothetical next-gen Super Hornet option would only be plausible if other Euro countries, eg, possibly Denmark and any others also decided on a joint-procurement plan. At least the next-gen Type IV computer, radar, IRST don't seem to be a joke. Just upgrade from there? Engine? CFT to replace wing EFT? Integrate Meteor?
But I'm also curious why no critical analysis or even mention of an F-16V-type option in the piece you posted? Down the road, supplement with a Joint-operated Euro stealth-UCAV force? |
_________________ The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
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spazsinbad
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Posted: Jul 10, 2012 - 11:45 PM
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Elite 3K

Joined: May 05, 2009 - 10:31 PM
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Lockheed 'confident' Dutch will buy F-35s despite negative vote July 10, 2012 by Steve Kaskovich
http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_talk ... -vote.html
"Lockheed Martin's top executive told reporters at the Farnborough Air Show that the company still expects the Netherlands to buy F-35s even after Dutch legislators voted to stop any purchases, Bloomberg News reported.
According to Bloomberg:
Dutch parliamentarians voted 77 to 71 on July 5 to halt the purchase of the JSF, and the government is now assessing the cost and industrial implications of withdrawal. Results will be presented after a general election due to be held on Sept. 12.
“There are no binding resolutions,” Tom Burbage [said]....
...adding that Dutch industry has critical responsibilities on the F-35 including the sole supply of electrical wiring."
BEST to read short article at source. |
_________________ RAN FAA A4G: http://tinyurl.com/ctfwb3t http://tinyurl.com/ccmlenr http://www.youtube.com/user/bengello/videos
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joost
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Posted: Oct 24, 2012 - 08:15 PM
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Enthusiast

Joined: May 22, 2010 - 11:11 AM
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
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Today the results of the report demanded by the parliament to find out the consequences of a bail out were leaked. It turns out to be cheaper to continue then to bail out. 150 million Euro will be lost when The Netherlands bail out. There will be only financial and practical trouble. Bailing out is not the logical option, concluded the report.
Liberals and Christian parties underline the conclusions. Labour party parliament member Eijsink said "I don't want to jump to conclusions". She is lobbying for bailing out of the project and favours alternatives like the Gripen. So this report is not exactly what she likes to see. Labour party and Liberals are negotiating to rule together after they won the elections. Chances are very real the Dutch will continue the development phase of the JSF (read my lips ). The Minister of Defence announced today to aim for acquiring 56 F-35As. This is significant lower then the always used number of 85. But is was already known that the MoD could not afford this number of aircraft. Numbers between 68 and 48 circulated. Now it turned out to be 56, for now.
For you Fellow Dutchies, news item at the jump:
http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2940949/doo ... oppen.html |
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m
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Posted: Oct 25, 2012 - 12:44 AM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: Jan 01, 2011 - 11:40 PM
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Location: NL
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joost wrote:
Today the results of the report demanded by the parliament to find out the consequences of a bail out were leaked. It turns out to be cheaper to continue then to bail out. 150 million Euro will be lost when The Netherlands bail out. There will be only financial and practical trouble. Bailing out is not the logical option, concluded the report.
Liberals and Christian parties underline the conclusions. Labour party parliament member Eijsink said "I don't want to jump to conclusions". She is lobbying for bailing out of the project and favours alternatives like the Gripen. So this report is not exactly what she likes to see. Labour party and Liberals are negotiating to rule together after they won the elections. Chances are very real the Dutch will continue the development phase of the JSF (read my lips  ). The Minister of Defence announced today to aim for acquiring 56 F-35As. This is significant lower then the always used number of 85. But is was already known that the MoD could not afford this number of aircraft. Numbers between 68 and 48 circulated. Now it turned out to be 56, for now.
For you Fellow Dutchies, news item at the jump:
http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2940949/doo ... oppen.html
Read both reports, as well the number mentioned by the min. of Defence.
The number 56 by the minister is based on the operational required F35’s.
The report of the Rekenkamer uses the number 68 F35’s (56 F35’s does not include training aircraft).
As well was mentioned, other F35’s will have to be ordered in the future because of lost aircraft.
The report mentions, in that case after some time the number 85 still will be ordered because of these lost aircraft.
But it all will depend or the F35 will be ordered, as well what the number F35's will be
In the economical report is mentioned, of the shell will be more expensive. As well as leaving the IOT&E phase financially would not be smart (more expensive an IOT&E by the Dutch themselves, as well as two F35’s will be very difficult to sell)
€150 million will be lost? Read the report, it’s really a hell a lot more. The report even mentions they have no idea what the “total” amount will be (bail out)
(The total Dutch investment JSF project: €1.7 billion) |
Last edited by m on Oct 25, 2012 - 01:04 AM; edited 2 times in total
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m
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Posted: Oct 25, 2012 - 01:01 AM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: Jan 01, 2011 - 11:40 PM
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spazsinbad
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Posted: Oct 25, 2012 - 05:10 AM
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Elite 3K

Joined: May 05, 2009 - 10:31 PM
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For the English speakers...
Dutch should go ahead with F-35 test project-report By Gilbert Kreijger Oct 24, 2012
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/ ... P320121024
"..."We think pulling out of the test phase is not a logical option because on balance this would only bring disadvantages for the state in terms of functions, time and money," the Court of Audit said on Wednesday in its report on the F-35.
It added that if the Netherlands pulled out of the project and later decided to buy the plane or an alternative, it would face risks in terms of costs and availability.
The Court of Audit, whose recommendations are not binding, is an independent think tank which advises the cabinet and checks its spending and policy decisions.
Outgoing Defence Minister Hans Hillen welcomed most of the report's conclusions and said in a statement 56 F-35 planes were sufficient to meet the Netherlands' air force operations.
The Netherlands has 68 F-16 planes and Hillen said in April he would buy fewer than the originally planned 85 F-35s."
Always more at the JUMp. |
_________________ RAN FAA A4G: http://tinyurl.com/ctfwb3t http://tinyurl.com/ccmlenr http://www.youtube.com/user/bengello/videos
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joost
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Posted: Oct 25, 2012 - 07:44 AM
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Enthusiast

Joined: May 22, 2010 - 11:11 AM
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
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M: thanks for the reports. The first one clearly indicated that there is not enough moneyreserved for 85 aircraft, nor 68. But with less ambitition 56 aircraft will probably fit in the budget. If 85 and 68 is including training aircraft, what makes you think 56 is excluding training aircraft? I can't find that in the report. The Minister announced yesterday to aim for 56 aircraft, unless more money will be spend of course. AFAIK this is the total amount of aircraft currently fitting in the budget of 4,05 billion Euros. For 85 aircraft 8 billion is needed as stated in the report. I fear it is the total number when they talk about 56...(it is even stated in the report more at the end, that given the number of 68 (which is not fitting in the budget), there will be aircraft stationed in the US, which are training aircraft.)
So unless there will be more money available, the number will be 56 or less.
The 150 million the press is reffering to is the direct wasted money (short term) and directly related to economical effects of quiting the SDD project, in relation to the invested money.
Terecht vestigt uw rapport nu de aandacht op de noodzaak van financiële
inpasbaarheid van de vervanger van de F-16. De reservering van
€ 4,5 miljard, waarvan inmiddels € 0,45 miljard is uitgegeven, is niet
voldoende voor de aanschaf van 85 F-35 toestellen – het tot op heden
gehanteerde planningsaantal – of van 68 F-35 toestellen, het huidige
aantal F-16’s. Ook zullen de exploitatie-uitgaven bij deze aantallen hoger
zijn dan de huidige exploitatie-uitgaven voor de F-16.
De Algemene Rekenkamer heeft eerder in haar Monitoringrapport over
2011 (3 april 2012) geconstateerd dat er thans geen evenwicht bestaat
tussen de ambities en het aantal F-16 toestellen. Ervan uitgaande dat de
trend naar intensievere internationale samenwerking in de nabije
toekomst aanhoudt, acht Defensie een operationeel verantwoorde
taakuitvoering mogelijk met 56 F-35 jachtvliegtuigen. |
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m
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Posted: Oct 25, 2012 - 04:46 PM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: Jan 01, 2011 - 11:40 PM
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joost wrote:
M: thanks for the reports. The first one clearly indicated that there is not enough moneyreserved for 85 aircraft, nor 68. But with less ambitition 56 aircraft will probably fit in the budget. If 85 and 68 is including training aircraft, what makes you think 56 is excluding training aircraft?
Terecht vestigt uw rapport nu de aandacht op de noodzaak van financiële
inpasbaarheid van de vervanger van de F-16. De reservering van
€ 4,5 miljard, waarvan inmiddels € 0,45 miljard is uitgegeven, is niet
voldoende voor de aanschaf van 85 F-35 toestellen – het tot op heden
gehanteerde planningsaantal – of van 68 F-35 toestellen, het huidige
aantal F-16’s.
Ervan uitgaande dat de trend naar intensievere internationale samenwerking in de nabije toekomst aanhoudt, acht Defensie een operationeel verantwoorde
taakuitvoering mogelijk met 56 F-35 jachtvliegtuigen.
Reserved €4.5 billion:
As in all letters was mentioned, the €4.5 billion is reserved money, but has nothing to do with a needed budget.
A needed budget, as well as a number F35’s would be the responsibility for the government ordering the F35.
In several letters has been explained €4.5 billion is reserved money, but is not the needed budget.
Actually this has been the case since 2002. Only the government that will order the F35 will be responsible for a needed budget
This means even min Hillen has no authority. Only the next government, the government that will order the F35, can propose a needed budget, as well as a number F35’s
As the minister wrote (in the report):
Het regeerakkoord van het kabinet-Rutte bepaalde dat een besluit over de vervanging van de F-16 door een volgend kabinet zou worden genomen.
Daarom heb ik in de beleidsbrief Defensie na de kredietcrisis van 8 april 2011 aangekondigd voor de vervanging van de F-16 een reservering van € 4,5 miljard te verwerken in de investeringsplannen van Defensie.
Deze reservering stond los van het nader te bepalen totale aantal toestellen. Een aanschafbesluit werd niet vóór 2015 voorzien en een deel van de benodigde investeringen zou dus buiten de tienjarige planningshorizon van 2011 vallen.
Van een taakstellend budget, gekoppeld aan een vast aantal, is om deze redenen nooit sprake geweest.
Google Translate: This reservation was independent of the total number of units to be determined. A purchase decision was not before 2015 and provide a portion of the investment required would therefore outside the decennial planning horizon of 2011 fall. Of a task-based budget, linked to a fixed number, it is for these reasons, there has been never.
Number F35’s:
Quote minister: Ervan uitgaande dat de trend naar intensievere internationale samenwerking in de nabije toekomst aanhoudt, acht Defensie een operationeel verantwoorde taakuitvoering mogelijk met 56 F-35 jachtvliegtuigen.
Assuming that the trend towards increased international cooperation in the near future holds, Defence thinks a operational responsible task performance is possible with 56 F-35 fighter aircraft
It’s quite clear the minister means 56 F35’s in "operational" terms (Without a needed number training aircraft)
Conclusions report bailing out:
IOT&E Phase
We do not consider withdrawal from the test phase (IOT&E) to be an appropriate option. It would produce only disadvantages for the state, both functionally and regarding timing and cost.
JSF programme
In view of the functionality, timing and cost consequences, withdrawing from the JSF programme and procuring another aircraft 'off the shelf' would be rational only if the air force's current operational deployability objectives were reconsidered. |
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joost
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Posted: Oct 25, 2012 - 06:09 PM
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Enthusiast

Joined: May 22, 2010 - 11:11 AM
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
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Quote minister: Ervan uitgaande dat de trend naar intensievere internationale samenwerking in de nabije toekomst aanhoudt, acht Defensie een operationeel verantwoorde taakuitvoering mogelijk met 56 F-35 jachtvliegtuigen.
Assuming that the trend towards increased international cooperation in the near future holds, Defence thinks a operational responsible task performance is possible with 56 F-35 fighter aircraft
It’s quite clear the minister means 56 F35’s in "operational" terms (Without a needed number training aircraft)
Sorry, read the report, and don't junp to conclusions which are not written down. nowhere is your conclusion to be found that 56 means a netto number. Its quite clear that within the current budget, it is not possible to purchase 85 aircraft (including a/c for training), nor 68 (including for training), but 56. And 56 is of course also including for training. Do the math: if 68 aircraft including a number for training is not sufficient, then 56+ lets say 10 for training is also not sufficient. Nowhere it is mentioned that 56 is excluding extra aircraft for training.
Quote: Minister Hillen gaat in zijn reactie niet in op de mogelijkheid om te stoppen met het JSF-project. Hij pleit ervoor dat Nederland 56 JSF-toestellen aanschaft en de doelstellingen van de krijgsmacht aanpast. Met 56 toestellen kan Nederland namelijk niet dezelfde soort en aantal missies blijven doen als nu. Volgens de SP is het onderzoek alleen maar een vertragingstactiek van de minister.
Eigenlijk wilde de minister 85 JSF-vliegtuigen kopen, maar dat is volgens de Rekenkamer veel te duur. Ook het bestellen van 68 vliegtuigen, net zoveel vliegtuigen als er nu F-16's zijn, is volgens de Rekenkamer een grote aanslag op de begroting. Defensie zou dan zeven jaar lang de helft van het totale investeringsbudget kwijt zijn aan de JSF.
http://www.rtl.nl/components/actueel/rt ... -kopen.xml
And about the budget, thinking that the actual budget will be much more then the reserved budget is of course wishful thinking. |
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joost
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Posted: Oct 25, 2012 - 06:19 PM
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Enthusiast

Joined: May 22, 2010 - 11:11 AM
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
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From NRC:
Zo kunnen er hooguit 56 toestellen worden gekocht, te weinig om de huidige 68 gevechtsvliegtuigen te vervangen.
So it is only possible to buy 56 aircraft at the maximum, to less to replace the current 68 fighters.
When it is possible to buy 56 aircraft at the maximum, it is not equal to "we can buy 56 aircraft at the maximum, and oh, plus 10 taircraft for training purposes of course". |
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m
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Posted: Oct 25, 2012 - 06:34 PM
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Forum Veteran

Joined: Jan 01, 2011 - 11:40 PM
Posts: 623
Location: NL
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joost wrote:
From NRC:
Zo kunnen er hooguit 56 toestellen worden gekocht, te weinig om de huidige 68 gevechtsvliegtuigen te vervangen.
So it is only possible to buy 56 aircraft at the maximum, to less to replace the current 68 fighters.
When it is possible to buy 56 aircraft at the maximum, it is not equal to "we can buy 56 aircraft at the maximum, and oh, plus 10 taircraft for training purposes of course".
There is no budget, €4.5 billion is reserved money. Either this reserved money "could become" the budget.
But this will depend on what the next government will decide. How much budget and how many F35's will be ordered (needed).
Quote minister: Deze reservering stond los van het nader te bepalen totale aantal toestellen.
Een aanschafbesluit werd niet vóór 2015 voorzien en een deel van de benodigde investeringen zou dus buiten de tienjarige planningshorizon van 2011 vallen.
Van een taakstellend budget, gekoppeld aan een vast aantal, is om deze redenen nooit sprake geweest.
Because there is no budget at the moment, responsility of the next government, no one can tell how many F35's will be ordered.
“operationeel verantwoorde taakuitvoering mogelijk met 56 F-35 jachtvliegtuigen
As far as I read this, this concerns operational flying, not training |
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joost
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Posted: Oct 25, 2012 - 07:31 PM
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Enthusiast

Joined: May 22, 2010 - 11:11 AM
Posts: 85
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| Hi M, let's just wait and see if there will be more clarity in numbers. I hope you are right...but fear and I read it as absolute numbers...we'll see hopefully more news soon! |
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maus92
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Posted: Mar 21, 2013 - 09:04 PM
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Elite 1K

Joined: May 21, 2010 - 06:50 PM
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"Dutch orders for F-35 likely to be scaled back -sources"
By Sara Webb and Andrea Shalal-Esa
"AMSTERDAM/WASHINGTON, March 21 (Reuters) – Dutch orders for
the Pentagon’s F-35 warplane are likely to be cut back, sources
close to the discussions told Reuters, citing cost overruns and
delays in the program, uncertainty over the Netherlands’ defense
strategy and budget cuts across Europe.
The Netherlands may cut 17 to 33 F-35s from its initial
plans to buy 85 of the new warplanes, according to people close
to the discussions who were not authorized to speak publicly
since final decisions are not expected until later this year."
"A defense source close to the talks said there was no chance of the Netherlands ordering as many as 85 F-35s. "This number is completely out of date," the source said, adding discussions were focused on a procurement target of 52 to 68 planes.
With a budget of about 4.5 billion euros ($5.82 billion) to replace the F-16s, the Netherlands can only afford 33 to 35 F-35s, the source said, citing estimates from the General Auditor's office, which checks the government spends public funds as intended.
Withdrawing from the program and buying F-35s off the shelf would further raise the cost, the General Auditor's office said."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/ ... nnel=11563 |
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spazsinbad
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Posted: Apr 04, 2013 - 04:43 AM
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Elite 3K

Joined: May 05, 2009 - 10:31 PM
Posts: 7839
Location: OZ
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Dutch hard power: Choosing decline Marcial Hernandez | American Enterprise Institute 03 Apr 2013
Quote:
"...F-35 Lightning II. In 2002, the parliament of the Netherlands decided to invest € 800 million into the development of the F-35—the stealthy, American-designed, multirole fighter that is intended to replace the F-16 not only in the tactical air fleet of the US Air Force, but in many allied air forces as well. The initial expectation was that the Dutch would purchase 85 F-35s. However, with the cuts to the defense budget, that number has been significantly reduced, and, with an eye to further defense reductions, in July 2012 the Dutch parliament voted 77 to 71 to stop funding the project altogether.[18] Although the vote was not binding on the government, it does signal the possibility that the Dutch government might decide to withdraw from the program at a later date.
A sum of € 7.4 billion was initially reserved in the Dutch budget for the replacement of the F-16. While this budget has been lowered to € 4.5 billion, the budget itself is nonnegotiable. In other words, that money will be spent and the existing F-16s will be replaced. To date, the Dutch government has invested € 1.15 billion in the F-35 program and bought two planes for testing.[19] Since the F-16 will be replaced, all the costs incurred in the development of the F-35 thus far would essentially be wasted should the Netherlands choose a different aircraft. This would also be wasted money considering that, given the alternative aircrafts available, it would mean acquiring a fighter that, while still expensive, would be far less capable against modern and emerging air defenses. It is useful to remember that any F-16 replacement would likely be in the Dutch air force inventory for several decades. Also significant is the fact that the F-35 is being developed in conjunction with the United States, giving the Netherlands the opportunity to work closely on an important project with its most important ally.
The Netherlands’ discontinuation of the F-35 program is also a poor decision in terms of sheer economics. As a member of the international consortium that is involved not only in the plane’s development phase but also the ensuing production and sustainment phase, the Netherlands has a stake in the health of the F-35 program over the long term. According to former defense minister Hillen, the profits of co-producing the F-35 could amount to € 9 billion for the Netherlands. Whilst a little more than € 1 billion has been invested thus far, royalties from sales of the plane to nonconsortium countries such as Japan and Singapore are expected to cover the plane’s development costs and more.
The development of the F-35 in the Netherlands alone employs over a 1,000 people, and this number is only expected to rise. Projects of this magnitude also create an entire line of logistical, transport, production, and service industries that generate their own employment and financial benefits. There is also the added value tied to the fact that the program will help Dutch companies maintain cutting-edge engineering and technological skills and, in turn, will help support advanced research at Dutch technological universities. PricewaterhouseCoopers has calculated that the economic benefits of the F-35 would amount to € 16 billion over the life of the program, which would not only cover the Netherlands’ cost for procuring the fighter, but could also offset the cost to operate and maintain the fleet itself.[20]
In sum, backing out of the F-35 program now would leave the Dutch air force with a second-tier aircraft; would undercut the longer-term economic, industrial, and technological benefits associated with the program; and, finally, would put at risk the Netherlands’ credibility as a reliable and trusted NATO partner...."
http://www.aei.org/article/foreign-and- ... g-decline/
LONG article best read at source. |
_________________ RAN FAA A4G: http://tinyurl.com/ctfwb3t http://tinyurl.com/ccmlenr http://www.youtube.com/user/bengello/videos
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