Forum: Program and politics

SpudmanWP wrote:

SK not only has to deal with NK, but potentially NK's northern neighbor.

There is also the issue of NK's IADS which an F-15K would have severe problems with.

No arguments there, I just wanted to quash the new F-15 "crack prone" and "joke of a program" silliness.

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Aceshigh WTF? Who are they to demand anything, when even partner nations have yet to fly the jet.

Why not? They are the customer. They probably are just as confused as most about the F35.
Originally promoted as mainly a sneaky first strike platform that should have a 4 to 1 advantage over 1980 aircraft. South Korea to start with has no interest in a sneaky first strike platform - something to Counter-strike with yes. Like many they are saying will it be able to intercept and will it be any good as a fighter against 4++ and possibly 5 gen optimised in the fighter role. It does not matter so much with Japan - a larger airforce and country that needs to replace its Phantoms now used in the Anti Ship role and ground attack. That is what Japan is replacing with the F35. A logical move - buy 48 F35's at say $110m each [more or less the same price as a 4+]. If it is not good enough in the Air to Air role and as an interceptor they will build there own or build or modify something else under lisence. You can't blame Korea asking the same questions when it has to last 20-30 years. Are they supposed to believe LM and supposedly a few US Pilots as reported on this forum?

"South Korea to start with has no interest in a sneaky first strike platform "

Other than being faced by a huge number of SAMS and interceptors equipped with mechanically scanned arrays, exactly what the F-35 makes obsolete.

Your grasp of how VLO works and what it is for is pretty weak.

Last edited by geogen on Jun 30, 2012 - 04:43 AM; edited 1 time in total

SpudmanWP wrote:

They wanted a man in the plane and were denied. They then asked for telemetry devices and an answer has not been given in that regard.

Interesting. Thanks for that follow-up regarding no answer given yet, with respect to a 'telemetry device' used to track performance data.

So would your info also confirm or not, that LM/JPO has denied a ROK pilot from tracking the F-35's test performance envelope while in a pursuit jet? Or has there been no specific answer on that as well?

Perhaps SK is merely trying to confirm and validate the true performance envelope of the jet they are willing to consider as a major and unprecedented procurement?

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georgen
I think the issue therefore isn't so much that LM won't accept SK to test-fly the F-35 with the current time-frame in mind, but rather the F-35 itself being 'STILL UNDER DEVELOPMENT' and

You hit the nail on the head. The F35 is not ready to be tested in all areas and will not be until all the modifications are in place. Korea has not asked to fly it. They just want to verify with either a chase plane or other means its actual flight performance. Russia did not offer the T-50 when Korea asked. I read somewhere it will not be offered outside Russia or India until probably around 2025. Now held up because of the cracks found when fitting a drag shute to No1 when preparing it for high angle of attack tests last August. They say No4 airframe will be modified to overcome the problem and have the composite nose cone and radar installed and hopefully be ready for testing this year sometime. No 2 and 3 are still being used for tests but nothing too dramatic. The airforce is still hopefull of getting there 14 pre-production aircraft by 2015. Koreas only option from Russia now is the SU35s previously offered.

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shingen South Korea to start with has no interest in a sneaky first strike platform "

Do you have a reading problem.
I said South Korea has no interest in a FIRST STRIKE platform.
By that I mean they would not be the one to ATTACK FIRST.
There main interest is in defense. That first of all requires a good interceptor and air to air fighter.
I agree if they were attacked the F35 would be good to counter Strike weapon with its Stealth.
Learn to read.

Thanks for the reply rkap and btw, it's 'geogen, not geoRgen' Wink

Regarding a revisit of the Su35, that's plausible I guess, so might be an offer or request for offer of the Rafale? (lower RCS than the Typhoon?).

Personally, I think RoK should scrap the whole project and shoot for an interim mix of improved F-15K+ (with APG-82 superior surveillance AESA, next-gen Sniper/Litening SE pod, AEA/escort jamming kit and JASSM-ER) and additional FA-50, while accelerating the evaluation of new KF-X requirements (into a split requirement for manned and unmanned joint-ventures?), new opportunities, and strategy.

rkap wrote:

Quote:

shingen South Korea to start with has no interest in a sneaky first strike platform "

Do you have a reading problem.
I said South Korea has no interest in a FIRST STRIKE platform.
By that I mean they would not be the one to ATTACK FIRST.
There main interest is in defense. That first of all requires a good interceptor and air to air fighter.
I agree if they were attacked the F35 would be good to counter Strike weapon with its Stealth.
Learn to read.

No military planner worth his salt would remove the option for preemptive strike from his list of options to meet possible future contingencies. No one can possibly predict all possible threat scenarios that could arise in the future. The ability to strike first, availing of the element of surprise, has been proven time and again to be an effective strategy.

I agree with popcorn 100% on this. RoK could expect NK to be in Soul before they could stop the avalanche, so a preemptive strike is very likely to be high on the list of defensive options. What a deterrent it will be for NK to know that their old air defence kit will be mostly redundant. That, of course, could force an NK strike before the F-35 are ready for action.

I'm surprised at the anger being directed at South Korea for attempting to do some due diligence. The fact that the other partner nations joined the program before the F-35 was constructed is immaterial for the South Korean decision. In fact, one should applaud the South Koreans for trying to verify the manufacturers claims before committing to the program.

Finally, what prevents the South Koreans from buying a 4+ gen fighter now, waiting 5 years, and then entering the JSF program? At that point, the program will have dealt with most of its developmental issues, one hopes, and so the South Koreans will get the fighter absent developmental problems.

The presence or non-presence of the F-35 is not going to change the North Korean's military opinion of the situation. It won't provide much of a game-changer for campaign. Its deep strike is being replicated by South Korean cruise missiles and the deep deep strike, to the Capital and North, was probably always going to be part of the US target set. Odds are, in a war, the F-35 would be forced to go in the non-stealthy mode just to maximize weapons per sortie.

I have no problem with providing Sk with Telemetry data, IF the correct IP & security protections can be put in place.

btw, the F-35 is appropriate for much more than a First Strike weapon for SK. In any battle with NK it would be used for deep strike strategic & Tactical attacks against CnC, Supply, Transportation, and other assets that would severely hamper the invaders ability to resupply and coordinate attacks in the south. It would also automatically gather and distribute huge amounts of intel that it picks up as it fly's around.

There would be no shortage of missions for the F-35 in the case of an inter-Korean war. But that doesn't make it necessary at this particular point in time. Given the size of the South Korean military budget, it probably makes sense to try and maintain a balanced force (across 4, 4+, 5 gen.) fighters instead of going all in to the 5th gen right now. Also, the North Korean military threat doesn't demand an immediate jump in military capability.

I think the South Koreans would be better served waiting a few years before buying the F-35, let the program get developed by the US and partners, then join in when it works. In the meantime, the South Koreans can get some 4+ gen fighters, more than adequate for a host of strike missions, and also try to get a stealthy recon UAV. Getting recon UAVs is probably more important at this time than the F-35, as it will enable strikes by stealthy and non-stealthy fighters. E.g. recon UAV searches for TELs north of the border, when one is found the South Koreans vector in SLAM strikes via F-15Ks or F-35 strikes, or even South Korean ballistic missiles. Use UAVs to minimize threat to aircrews and maximize loiter time in the threat zone.

In about 5 - 10 years, the pace of North Korean development, glacial as it is, will probably necessitate a heavy stealth force, especially if their airforce gets a foreign aided recapitalization program...

rkap wrote:

Quote:

shingen South Korea to start with has no interest in a sneaky first strike platform "

Do you have a reading problem.
I said South Korea has no interest in a FIRST STRIKE platform.
By that I mean they would not be the one to ATTACK FIRST.
There main interest is in defense. That first of all requires a good interceptor and air to air fighter.
I agree if they were attacked the F35 would be good to counter Strike weapon with its Stealth.
Learn to read.

It's difficult to follow the logic of your posts because it isn't really there.

I'm not sure why you state the F-35 is a first strike platform. The only context in which I've seen the term first strike is nuclear or decapitation.

The F-35 is not a "first strike" platform because it can be picked up by long wavelength radars, which NK has. That eliminates hitting the leadership in a "first strike."

The F-35 cannot carry the big time bunker busters, at least in VLO configuration, so I'm not sure why you state that the F-35 is a first strike platform unless it's some term that you saw on APA.

The NK air force is decrepit and therefore the SK air force does not need to compromise strike for DCA capability. Their main need is for strike.

In a China scenario they will need strike and maybe maritime strike as well as DCA and OCA.

Japan just placed F-35 above all others when they have some of the same needs and opponents as SK.

So. please try and explain what logic there is to your line of argument.

I know you like hot rods but it seems that air forces disagree.

Does anyone have ideas on what performance criteria the Koreans are concerned about?
Do they require specific test points during a chased demo flight?
The F-35 has proven a large part of its flight envelope during test flights so far.
e.g Is there concerns over weapons/missile deployment during supersonic flight?

Let them stick to F-15, they seem to be pretty happy with the F-15K, and Boeing need a client for their F-15SE.

Forum: Program and politics

Korea threatens to disqualify F-35