Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

I've just been thinking about what could be done to bring the F-4E up to some kind of 4.5-generation standard. My personal upgrade shortlist would include a 4000hr SLEP, rewiring, re-engine to F414, APG-79 radar, modern ECM package, some kind of DAS system (yes, EODAS on an F-4), and a redesigned glass cockpit. I would incorporate a new RWR (key for a flying brick with the RCS of an aircraft carrier), and integration of AIM-120D, SDB, JDAM, AIM-9X, IRIS-T or ASRAAM (depending on your primary weapons source), as well as JSOW (ER), JASSM, HARM, and SLAM-ER.

We can probably pick and choose on the standoff weapons. Basically, this would be a long-range aircraft able to use its high speed to improve the range of its JDAMs and AIM-120s. It could theoretically carry 4 AMRAAMs or more in a conformal weapons pod, as well as several on two-round rail launchers. Think of using this theoretical Super Phantom in a role comparable to a dual-role Golden Eagle alongside the Raptor and F-35.

Obvious unlikeliness aside, thoughts and comments??

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Well, there are certainly enough frames lying around.

Yes!!! Finally a REAL topic. I'm sure somebody is going to try to shoot this one down and bring us back to reality.

Imagine the US getting really broke and one way to save money would be to depend on private military firms. Imagine a company that was able to find a bunch of former Phantom pilots, technicians and engineers with privilege to go through the boneyard and pick out whatever they could afford. I could see such a company operating a mixed fleet of various F-4 models too include aircraft recently retired from German and Israeli service. Obviously commonality would be an issue, but a re-engine program with the F414 and structural refurbishment would be first on my list, followed by an off-the-shelf glass cockpit and avionics suite. Additionally, any aircraft that didn't have the outer leading edge maneuvering slats would get them. Further more I would would consider a leading edge root extension on all models. Pursing as much commonality and possible and want to save money I would go with the RACR as it is comparable to the APG-79. RF-4B/C/E models would have their EO recon systems replaced with hardware taken from ATARS in addition to all of the other upgrades. All F-4B/C/D/J/N/S variants would be brought to as identical a standard as possible. F-4E/F aircraft would retain their guns. F-4Gs would revert back to F-4E standard as the push would be to allow any Phantom to be compatible with the HTS.

Oh, I was also thinking if I could get my hands on some former British Phantoms I would see if I could squeeze in dual F110s in place of the RR Speys.

discofishing wrote:

Oh, I was also thinking if I could get my hands on some former British Phantoms I would see if I could squeeze in dual F110s in place of the RR Speys.

Highly unlikely, the F110 is 2.5" larger in diameter than the RR Spey Mk202/203.

While the F-4Ks did have modified engine bays to accommodate the Spey Mk202 which was larger than the J79, I still don't think it would be enough to fit the F110. The F110's extra power would also be limited by the air flow of the old inlets. Without the 270lbs/sec of air required, the F110's thrust would be lower than what it can produce in the Viper.

Why the PW1120 had a smaller fan diameter than it's bigger F100 siblings. It could fit into the engine bay of the J79 and had a lower flow requirement. (Somewhere below the 245lbs/sec of the Viper's small mouth inlet)

I'd stick with the F414, would be the cheapest option and would fit into a J79's bays. Since it's in large production for multiple aircraft/nations, it has a large logistics network.

My Two Cents

Keep 'em flyin' Thumb

TEG

Would retractible canards help agility?

firstimpulse wrote:

Would retractible canards help agility?

I actually wouldn't go as far as making them retractable. There was the YF-4E (actually a converted RF-4C, by the way Wink

), which featured smallish canards. The reason I'd be opposed to retractable canards is because there isn't much space to tuck the things inside the engine intake ducts.

southernphantom wrote:

firstimpulse wrote:

Would retractible canards help agility?

I actually wouldn't go as far as making them retractable. There was the YF-4E (actually a converted RF-4C, by the way Wink

), which featured smallish canards. The reason I'd be opposed to retractable canards is because there isn't much space to tuck the things inside the engine intake ducts.

Were those canards fixed? If not, that'd add even more weight, which is why I would try the LERXs.

Weren't there a number of wing shape issues that were forced on the F-4 for stability?
What changes could you make with FBW artificial stability?

Newbie Joined: Oct 21, 2009 - 01:12 AM Posts: 9

Modernized F-4 (Terminator 2020 Program) downed yesterday over Syria. He has SLEP, rewiring (reducing weight by 750 kg), high performance Elta EL/M-2032 high-resolution SAR radar, modern ECM package, some kind of EOTS system, and a redesigned glass cockpit; also incorporate a new RWR.
And downed by old (but modernized too) SA-8 missile...

pfo wrote:

Modernized F-4 (Terminator 2020 Program) downed yesterday over Syria. He has SLEP, rewiring (reducing weight by 750 kg), high performance Elta EL/M-2032 high-resolution SAR radar, modern ECM package, some kind of EOTS system, and a redesigned glass cockpit; also incorporate a new RWR.
And downed by old SA-8 missile...

Given that it was apparently a mistake, there is a good chance that the pilot was caught completely be surprise.

Newbie Joined: Oct 21, 2009 - 01:12 AM Posts: 9

count_to_10 wrote:

Given that it was apparently a mistake, there is a good chance that the pilot was caught completely be surprise.

Pilot could be completely surprise. But RWR and ECM (AN/ALQ-178V3 and Elta EL/L-8222) no. They are fully automatic and were behind enemy lines.

Wouldnt EJ200 be more appropriate for theoretical F-4K re-engine plans? And perhaps the Tornado F.3 radar. And asraam/meteor/bk27. Oh, and swingwings.

madrat wrote:

Wouldnt EJ200 be more appropriate for theoretical F-4K re-engine plans? And perhaps the Tornado F.3 radar. And asraam/meteor/bk27. Oh, and swingwings.

Swingwings? Exactly how do you plan to manage that?
...or, were you saying "why not turn it into an F-14"?

No, an F.3! No sarcasm detector?

Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

Theoretical F-4 Phantom Upgrades