Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

The F-15 Eagle is made for Air Superiority. And the Falcon is made for Multi-role but can the Falcon take down the Eagle in Air Superiority?

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With the right person in the pit.....absotively! Wink

but not a high alt and not in terms of weapons, radar, range, loiter time

BVR--Eagle does have a bigger radar, so it gets a first shot.

WVR--Falcon will fly circles around the 15.

BVR is what is crucial, if 16 can get past the 15 in BVR, than its a worth seeing fight to watch.

Check6 wrote

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But not a high alt and not in terms of weapons, radar, range, loiter time

I agree 100.97%

ACShev

high alt means very much for air superiority. planes are not restricted by Gs ut by available lift. That is an advantage for planes like F-15, F-18, but MiG/Su only. It's vipers greatest shortcomming in my opinion.

(ok. with conformal fueltanks and 2200l droptanks I would not consider the F-16 as a fighter Wink

Hope it flies better than it looks. A clean F-16 is a beauty )

Longer Radar Range does not mean First shot. EVER. Just because the F-15 would see it's opponent first doesn't mean it can shoot first. AMRAAM doesn't have a longer range than the F-16's radar- so, F-15 picks up the 16 first. Big Deal. 16's RWR lights up like a Christmas Tree, he turns on his ECM and the F-15 has no idea how fast the F-16 is going. 2 things can happen- F-16 gets the Eagle on Radar and Eagle turns on his ECM- Eagle knows how close the F-16 is ROUGHLY due to being locked up, but the 16 knows exactly where the 15 is from it's RWR. Oops. The F-15 just gave away his Position. If I was flying the Viper, i'd go supersonic for a fast closing rate and zoom climb about 7000-10000 feet. Eagle doesn't know where the viper is except for a heading, because the Viper's radar's off. Eagle can Risk a HOJ shot but that sure gives away his Location and the Viper can fire back. Otherwise F-16 could Pitbull an Amraam. At the right range, if you fired it properly, when the AMRAAM goes active, You're TOAST. Also, the F-16 could lock up the F-15, who might be using his ECM anyway and do a HOJ shot. The Eagle could respond in Kind. Another Option for the F-16 is to close to visual, but that Relies on the 15 not trying a Home on Jam- With probably 4-6 AMRAAMs, that's not that much of a Risk. What would I do? I'd try and get a Boresight lock on the Eagle. If he's not using his ECM, I know for sure. Otherwise, I'm probably close enough anyway and he has no Idea that I'm 10000 feet above him and that I'm Supersonic. And HOJ would most likely hit. Splash 1 Eagle.

Note, the Eagle has options too, almost exactly like those, and probably more- What does that say? Honestly, the machine (specifically radar range) means very little, it's all how you use it.

Missile range greatly depends on launch speed and altitude.

Longer detection range => longer time on full AA gaining energy => Better energy => longer missile range. It also means faster extension.

Dammerung is also, IMHO, greaty exegerating the effect of jamming. Is seems resonable that both players would get a viable fireing solution before beeing in range for a high Pk shot.

Of course usage and tactics are always imprtant,. but there is very litte the inferiour machine can do if the better machines pilot proceeds with caution.

The F15 driver (due to higher fuel load and better starting speed, see above) always has the option to leave the fight if he does not like what he sees. The F-16 driver does not have such luxury.

Jamming is like a big noise box- You know the general area where it's coming from but can't pinpoint it. Can't see enemy's Airspeed or Altitude. Keep in mind, that as soon as the F-15 turns on his radar, the F-16 knows almost exactly where it is. Also, just because the F-15 has a faster Top speed doesn't mean it's got better acceleration- You can only hit top speed at VERY high altitudes- This fight would be at something a little more practical, like 20000 feet. Whoever runs first gets shot down by an AMRAAM because the other fighter is accelerating while you're doing your 180. Just because you take the missiles range down by more than half won't mean too much. You can only extend missile range a few nm by altitude advantage. Loft launch does it too. In BVR, turning on your radar is a big risk. BVR combat is a lot like a gunfight in a pitch black room with flashlights. You can turn on your flashlight to look for the other guy, but chances are he'll see you first. AWACS would be a guy in the corner with NVGs telling you where to go. As soon as the F-15 turns on his Radar, the F-16 has all the options in the world, because he knows where the 15 is, and chances are, the F-15 hasn't seen the F-16 yet. So the F-16 in all actuality would be positioning itself for a shooting position earlier. And if you proceed with caution, then you'll just be slower, lower, and have a missile coming at you. In BVR or Dogfight, you need to be agressive. If in BVR that means going on while you know a Missile is coming at you, so be it. Whoever is the better pilot is going to get the first shot off, plain and simple. And keep in mind first shot doesn't nessesarily mean victory. Say F-15 shoots first, HOJ, same scenario as above. The F-16 shoots and F-poles.(Drops his flaps, opens his airbrake, and pulls his nose up). The F-16's Amraam will probably hit first. Though, if the F-15's got a good pilot he probably F-poled as well. Even so, the F-16 is higher, and there fore it's missile will have more energy when it arrives, so the F-16 has more Dodging options than the F-15. Both players have more or less the same options. Su-27/MiG-29 vs F-16/15 is a LOT different because SARH missiles are involved. These give the Su/MiG both an Advantage an disadvantage. Opponent won't see the missile on his RWR and the Missile has longer reach(not all SARH missiles, just R-27). But if he has to break lock for evasive action or the Bandit Beams, then the missile loses lock and has to reaquire the target.

Back to the F-15/16, keep in mind that the eariler you shoot, the less accuracy the missile has. If one fires at RMAX and the other waits a few miles then fires and F-poles, more than likely, whoever fired second is the one who hits. If your enemy turns on his ECM, you have to use your Judgement to decide when to fire. "What did he do before he turned his ECM on? Is he higher? If so, I need to wait more. Is he faster? If so, I need to shoot sooner. Am I in range yet?" If you answer all those questions correctly and compensate appropriately, you have a Home on Jam shot that will probably hit it's target. Otherwise, you have a clean miss. If you take too much time to decide, you have a missile coming your way. Oops. By using ECM, you make your Target uncertain, and that's bad for him. If he uses his, then you see him on the RWR. If he turns his radar and ECM off, he can reposition himself. If he leaves ECM on but Turns Radar off then You have the option of turning yours on, and basically lighting yourself up like a christmas tree to see only a big line in the direction of the jamming. If you both leave Radar and ECM off, the best Options are Pitbulling(Same as a HOJ shot, but you don't even know if you're shooting in the right direction!), and Boresight. If I was EITHER of them, I'd try for boresight.

If both sides have AWACS, then turning on your radar is suicide.

RWR don´t give you range information. For the rest read the F-16 vs F15 thread in here.

A glance into introcudction to airborne radar.pdf won´t hurt either.

In short I think you have no idea what you are talking about just throwing buzzowrds around. Anyway none of us will convince the other so, think what you want to think

Before you start accusing me of anything, you might want to do some homework. It doesn't give you range information, but it tells you signal strength. A Look at the AN/ALR-56, and the SPO-15 Beryoza RWRs wouldn't hurt. Neither would a look at how ECM works. A look at missiles might be a nice idea as well. The F-15 can detect targets at ranges much longer than it can shoot. Just because you have something locked up on your radar doesn't mean you automatically get to shoot it down, and whatever you've locked up is completely vulnerable.

This RWR, found on most Russian Aircraft(though it is outdated, all the newest stuff (Su-30, Su-25T)

The Outer circles display direction of the threat.
The Ring just outside of the MiG-21 shows signal strength.
The Two Circles at the bottom show if a threat is behind you to the left or right.
The Boxes at the bottom show a specific threat. AFAIK, they can be programmed for a specific Radar(IE AN/APG-63), or a group of Radars(IE, All Medium Range SAMs, or AWACS) I could be wrong about that part, but it hardly matters.

I can't find a picture of the AN/ALR-56, but it hardly matters. It shows a signal in the form of a symbol(IE, BB for 'Big Bird' Radar[SA-10?], 27 for Su-27's N-001, 50 for A-50 Mainstay). Depending on the Symbol, you know how strong the signal is. I had the entire list of signals that the RWR showed, but I can't find them.

So honestly, I know a bit about what I'm talking about. Not nearly as much as one of the guys who fly F-16/F-15 etc etc, but do a bit more homework before telling me I don't know what I'm talking about.

I have to agree with hansundfranz on this one.
Knowing exactly where a threat is (through the RWR), like you mentioned in your 1st post,
and having the signal strength on your RWR is not the same thing.

And believe me, hansundfranz knows what he is talking about.

A RWR Will never tell you exactly where your opponent is (unlike locking a Bandit up on Radar, where you get all kinds of neat info on him!), but you get Heading, Approximate Distance(Knowing What Opponent is from Signal Strength. IE, for the SPO-15 if that ring is full more than Likely he's already shot at you). SPO-15 also shows you whether your target is higher or lower. When you turn your radar on it's a big risk- If you have AWACS, just wait until they tell you you're within 20nm before you turn it out. Because then, if you lock them up, you may at most have only a few seconds until you can get a good shot(look at the F-14s shooting down two MiG-23s, also shows you that a fight can't be BVR forever).

In a BVR Situation, I think i'd actually much rather have an SPO-15. And as a Falcon 4 player(I'm assuming fropm your Website in your sig) you should know how much of an advantage a RWR gives you. If you immediately get a strong Signal from what you know is an enemy fighter, you may know he locked you up, but have very little time to act.
Case of miswording on my part, but none the less, the RWR Displays Quite a bit of information. Maybe not altitude(well, you at least know if he's above/below you with the SPO-15...) or Airspeed, but enough that you can maneuver yourself into an Advantageous position(where he might not want to, to keep you within the gimbal limits of his Radar)

Honestly, until you look up a bit more on both Western and Eastern RWRs(unless, god forbid, you're taking everything you know about Air Combat From a Sim, and Granted, I play Sims too but They can't get EVERYTHING right!)

Oh, and, as far as missile range being influenced by launch speed and alt, listen to this. When a Missile Fires, it takes only a couple seconds to get up to top speed. If the Missile is in a dive, it may actually lose some speed due to drag while the motor is on(only a couple knots maybe). Drag is the biggest factor, but shooting TOO FAR down and you're only reducing the range. The Missile, will, of course have to go through Thicker air and therefore slow down. As far as launch speed goes, It doesn't really matter as much(unless missile is ramjet powered), as the missile accelerates to it's maximum speed so fast. Altitude/Airspeed may only give you An extra nm range or so. With an Engagement like R-27RE vs AIM-120C, this won't make a big difference. R-27 is GOING to have the option for first shot, no matter what. If you take it, you keep the bandit on his toes even though it will probably miss. R-27RE's optimal firing range is still longer than the AIM-120's No Escape range.

Dammerung wrote:

A RWR Will never tell you exactly where your opponent is (unlike locking a Bandit up on Radar, where you get all kinds of neat info on him!)

and you need all that neat info to have resonble Pk for a medium to long range shot,

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]Knowing What Opponent is from Signal Strength

Modern radars change output power considerably depending on range. your RWR might tell you if he´s really clsoe or really far but thats about the precission you can expect..

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When you turn your radar on it's a big risk

Why? you might give some information away but you get better and more information in return.

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(look at the F-14s shooting down two MiG-23s, also shows you that a fight can't be BVR forever)

this fight was a log time ago. The F14s were armed with sparrow (never a real BVR weapon). The Opponent had zero BVR threat and the F14 drivers made several mistakes,

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Oh, and, as far as missile range being influenced by launch speed and alt, listen to this. When a Missile Fires, it takes only a couple seconds to get up to top speed. If the Missile is in a dive, it may actually lose some speed due to drag while the motor is on(only a couple knots maybe). Drag is the biggest factor, but shooting TOO FAR down and you're only reducing the range. The Missile, will, of course have to go through Thicker air and therefore slow down. As far as launch speed goes, It doesn't really matter as much(unless missile is ramjet powered), as the missile accelerates to it's maximum speed so fast. Altitude/Airspeed may only give you An extra nm range or so. With an Engagement like R-27RE vs AIM-120C, this won't make a big difference. R-27 is GOING to have the option for first shot, no matter what. If you take it, you keep the bandit on his toes even though it will probably miss. R-27RE's optimal firing range is still longer than the AIM-120's No Escape range.

Altitude; Missile range roughly doubles every 20,000 ft. Launch speed: The total amount of energy is the sum of potential, kinetc and the chemical energy stored in the burners. This is not the most imprtant part but you´ll be fast anyway because you´ll be un the suoersonic path of the best enegry gain profile and your high speed also means faster extension.

Altitude difference:
If you shoot from high to low your missile willl have its fastest speed up high in thin air, loosing relatively less energy. it will also be able to transfer potential into kinetic energy.
If you shoot from low to high your missile is loosing lots of enery down low
in the dense air. Once it reaches higher alt it has already slowed down considerably, Surely you know that drag is proportional to CAS^2.

Another bug mistake you make is the assumption of tactics.
In RL self presevence and suivival is a big issue.
No one will stay hot, betting the farm on his ability to sppof the other guys shot and then have a better position for the follow up.
In F4 if you win fight in the DF module with 3:2 you won.
With the same ods in RL you risk a 66% chance to die.
In RL BVR fight ppl will keep their distance and take lower PK shots, staying outside the other guys envelope,

Back to toppic, due to its better radar, bettter acceleration, higher fuel leven better hifgh speed and climb performance the F15 will "always" get the better initial position. From that position the F15 will always have a low PK shot wile the F-16 still has a zero PK shot.
The wise f15 pilot will take that low PK shot and pump.
The 16 will get no chance to return the favour
if he kills the F-16 good, if not he can decide if there is enough room to turn back for another try (this should happen if The F-16 sensing the shot also decides to pump. The 16 has to maneuver harder then the F15 honouring the threat of the incomeing missile, further increasing the energy difference between the 2 contenders decreasing the F-16s chances in the next attemt) or just run all the way home if the situation seems to dangerous.
Finally in F4 we can practise spoofing slammer easily and repeat it as often as we like, In RL you can´t. Too repeat myself. No one will bet his live on his abillity to spoof a shot and stay hot no matter what.

You make some good points, but you're missing things too.

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and you need all that neat info to have resonble Pk for a medium to long range shot,

What makes you think you should shoot based on RWR info alone? If you're in range to shoot a missile, you're almost DEFINATLY in range to lock him up with Radar. If a Bandit turns on his Radar First, he is
A) Giving away his Position
B) Therefore telling you EXACTLY where you need to point your radar to find him.

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Modern radars change output power considerably depending on range. your RWR might tell you if he´s really clsoe or really far but thats about the precission you can expect..

That's really all the precision you need. If he locks you up, it lights up like a Christmas tree. If it's just beeping he may see you.

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this fight was a log time ago. The F14s were armed with sparrow (never a real BVR weapon). The Opponent had zero BVR threat and the F14 drivers made several mistakes

Sparrow isn't that bad of a weapon. And yes, they screwed up. Like forgetting to turn up the volume on his Winder Tone. Oops.

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Altitude; Missile range roughly doubles every 20,000 ft. Launch speed: The total amount of energy is the sum of potential, kinetc and the chemical energy stored in the burners. This is not the most imprtant part but you´ll be fast anyway because you´ll be un the suoersonic path of the best enegry gain profile and your high speed also means faster extension.

You forgot Max Velocity. It can only go so fast. That Max speed wall hits a missile like a ton of Bricks. Extension? You CAN'T extend, because you need to point your nose at the target at all times. With an ARH Missile, at least until it goes active so you don't waste your shot. With a SARH Missile, it just goes dead.

And yes, missile rage doubles Every 20k feet or so. But that doesn't matter so much as altitude difference.

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Altitude difference:
If you shoot from high to low your missile willl have its fastest speed up high in thin air, loosing relatively less energy. it will also be able to transfer potential into kinetic energy.
If you shoot from low to high your missile is loosing lots of enery down low
in the dense air. Once it reaches higher alt it has already slowed down considerably, Surely you know that drag is proportional to CAS^2.

High to low: The missile, depending on launch profile, will dive straight down, loosing speed all the way. Altitude difference should be big enough to extend the range of your missile, but small enough to not shorten it. 5000-8000 feet would be a good altitude advantage for a head on.

Low to high: It won't hamper your missile very much, especially if it's loft-launched. The missile will actually be gaining speed as it goes up. If it is a close range shot, altitude difference won't matter nearly as much, but at long range, you're still at a disadvantage. But it all depends on the burn time of the missile. R-27 would have a lot less of a Handicap than the AIM-120.

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Another bug mistake you make is the assumption of tactics.
In RL self presevence and suivival is a big issue.
No one will stay hot, betting the farm on his ability to sppof the other guys shot and then have a better position for the follow up.
In F4 if you win fight in the DF module with 3:2 you won.
With the same ods in RL you risk a 66% chance to die.
In RL BVR fight ppl will keep their distance and take lower PK shots, staying outside the other guys envelope,

I covered pretty much all of this above. The whole Idea is to kill the enemy before he can shoot you. Wonderful. With a tiny radar like the F-16's you have to improvise a bit against someone with a big Radar, but it's still not that much of a disadvantage. If done correctly, you can take down your opponent easily.

Now, since this thread is F-15 vs F-16, they both have the same missile, the AIM-120. You're assuming the F-15 would get the first shot. An AIM-120 carried on an F-15 does not have longer range than an AIM-120 carried on an F-16 Smile

You turn on your radar to see where the F-16 is. You see him, but he sees you on the RWR. Therefore, the only thing stopping him from seeing you on his Radar is his Radar's Range. You've essentially given yourself away. As soon as that F-16 pilot sees that, he's gonna start climbing like a mad man in your general direction. He'll probably turn on his ECM since you've got him spiked anyway. If you're smart, you'll turn off your radar and turn on Yours. If you leave it on and leave your ECM off, you're looking at a big line on your radar, and he can lock you up and fire. You'd need a Home on Jam shot, not much better than Pitbulling.

That's just one way it could happen though. The F-15 has all the same options, really. As I said, many times before.

As far as low PK shots go, it's effectively a waste of a missile. If you've both got ARH missiles, who gets the first depends on who positions themself better. And Just because you shoot first doesn't mean you kill them. Just because on your Hud it tells you that you can shoot at 20nm doesn't mean that you should, maybe your No Escape Range is at 15nm. In that Case, it's far better to wait about 15-20 seconds before shooting. His missile has a slim chance of hitting you. Yours is almost guaranteed to hit him. His will go active before he gets shot down, sure, but with some evasive maneuvers you're pretty much guaranteed to dodge it. You said that a real pilot is much more interested in his own Survival, but as pilots time and time again have said, the only way to win is to be agressive. Turning around and Running as soon as your opponent shoots is certainly not agressive. Also, by taking lots of Low PK shots, you run the risk of running out of missiles entirely. And then you're just screwed.

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Back to toppic, due to its better radar, bettter acceleration, higher fuel leven better hifgh speed and climb performance the F15 will "always" get the better initial position. From that position the F15 will always have a low PK shot wile the F-16 still has a zero PK shot.

Err, not so much. The Extra fuel the Eagle Carries is going to take it's thrust to weight ratio and throw it in the toilet. High Speed doesn't matter, as Mach numbers above 2 only appear Waaaay above 30000 feet. It takes a few minutes to get up to those High Mach Numbers anyway, and if you do, you probably don't have the fuel to make it to a tanker. Neither fighter would probably accelerate past Mach 1.3 tops, maybe even climb at mach .9 or so. Also, the F-15C's Thrust to Weight ratio is lower than the F-16A's(Both versions of each aircraft are better at Air to Air than the F-15A and F-16C respectively).

The F-16 can hang with the Eagle no problem. So if the F-15 has a low PK shot, even if the F-16 doesn't have him locked up, he can still pitbull. And you can't say "always" even if it is in quotes... In BVR, if either driver screws up they're dead. F-16 pilot just needs to use Different tactics. Long Range radar doesn't mean all that much, especially if you have good AWACS support, then it's just extra weight. And if the F-15 has a low PK shot when the F-16 is out of Range, it hardly matters. If the F-15 takes that shot, it was a mistake- The F-16 can continue for 15-20 Seconds, fire, and as soon as it goes active, break off, and run the F-15's Missile out of Range. If you fire early, all you do is waste a Missile. A Shot fired in No escape range is far better at any time. Or, the F-16 Could F-pole, and the F-15's first missile would just fall out of the sky harmlessly. Being too fast in a BVR Engagement only means you're making a higher closure rate for the enemy's missile.

And this isn't even counting ECM, which REALLY puts a kink in things, but the Eagle would still have the Advantage radar wise if he turns on his ECM, as he'll burn through first. But not nearly enough to matter, by the Time he does, both fighters are getting withiin range, and by the time the F-16 Burns through, he'll probably be in No Escape Range.

Apearently you have serious problems with thy physics applied to rockets withing an atmosphere.

A missle does only have a fixed max CAS if you carry enough fuel to accelerate it until it reaches that speed.
A2A missiles carry a lot less.

In addition for range PK and such CAS is not really imprtant. TAS is, (altitude advanatge plays a major role)

There is also no way that a altiude advantage will reduce your range advanatge if the altitude difference becomes to big.

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. You're assuming the F-15 would get the first shot. An AIM-120 carried on an F-15 does not have longer range than an AIM-120 carried on an F-16

You are dead wrong with that. The F15 is the much better plane it can reach a better position to maximise missile the the F-16 can.

Anyway, you live in a fantasy world and I stongly belive you just find reasons to justify your favourite 1vs 1 tactic as something realistic.

Well time to end this discussion. All has been said