Forum: General F-35 Forum

So you know how the F-35 is suppose to replace the F-15's, F-16's.

Once the F-35's are fully operational, is there a chance that the US government will sell it's old stock of still usable F-15's / F-16's to allied countries who need aircraft on the cheap?

Maybe some place like Taiwan for example?

The money can be used to offset the cost of the F-35 program.

Kind of like selling other countries used fighters / used cars.

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The F-35 isn't replacing the F-15C or F-15E. The F-22 "replaced" some F-15Cs though.

As for the F-16s, its possible, but "cost offset" isn't the driving argument. Most EDA F-16s have been "sold" for less than $5m each, pre-upgrade, or even "given away", but depending on how the deal is structured, the recipient pays the SLEP/Refurbishment/Upgrade costs.

Taiwan actually wants new F-16C 50/52 although I'm guessing LM isn't exactly happy about them choosing BAE for the upgrades to the F-16A 20s.

kamenriderblade wrote:

So you know how the F-35 is suppose to replace the F-15's, F-16's.

Once the F-35's are fully operational, is there a chance that the US government will sell it's old stock of still usable F-15's / F-16's to allied countries who need aircraft on the cheap?

Maybe some place like Taiwan for example?

The money can be used to offset the cost of the F-35 program.

Kind of like selling other countries used fighters / used cars.

The US Fighter fleet is basicly spent, meaning it's basicly cycled and houred out so their is nothing to sell. The pentagon is sqeezing every hour and cycle out of the airframes that they can. and then some.

alloycowboy wrote:

The US Fighter fleet is basicly spent, meaning it's basicly cycled and houred out so their is nothing to sell. The pentagon is sqeezing every hour and cycle out of the airframes that they can. and then some.

Typically a post SLEP refurbished F-16 costs ~ $20m. The UFC on a brand new one is about $50m. Politics and budget constraints restricted the USAF from ordering more F-16s in the 2000s.

Even countries with more limited economies like Poland, Romania and Morocco are buying new jets. I think a SLEPd USAF F-16A Block 15 would be in better condition than a Block 30, because the F-16As were retired before the airframe wore out.

[quote="neurotech"]

alloycowboy wrote:

.. I think a SLEPd USAF F-16A Block 15 would be in better condition than a Block 30, because the F-16As were retired before the airframe wore out.

Could a SLEPed F-16A be upgraded to the block 40 or 50 level as a weapons platform escort for the F-35? Question

An "escort" for the F-35???

Are you serious?

Sounds like a manned-MALD to me Wink

neptune wrote:

neurotech wrote:

.. I think a SLEPd USAF F-16A Block 15 would be in better condition than a Block 30, because the F-16As were retired before the airframe wore out.

Could a SLEPed F-16A be upgraded to the block 40 or 50 level as a weapons platform escort for the F-35? Question

There are various SLEP/MLU programs that can give a F-16A more fatigue life, but I seriously doubt it would be Block 50 level stores weight.

I basically asked johnwill the same question, but about Block 30 jets.

johnwill wrote:

neurotech wrote:

johnwill wrote:

Block 30 did include some strengthening, following a block 25 static test failure in the wing. However an overall structural redesign was done for block 40, to catch up with all the previous weight increases and the Lantirn installation. The intent was there for early F-16 air to ground, but actual usage was more severe than designed for, usage meaning heavier weapons loading, higher speeds, higher g. Not higher than design limit, but a higher spectrum of occurrences. The original mission spectrum was 60% air to ground, 40% air to air.

Thats what I thought, except for being mistaken about Block 30 vs 40 structural changes. I don't know what the structural requirements would be for Block 70 jets are, but I thought it was pitched as an upgrade option for predominantly Block 15/20 MLU jets. Do you think if they took a Block 30 jet out of the boneyard, rebuilt it with structural upgrades to match Block 40/50 jets, could they get another 3000+ hours out of those jets, as F-16V 70s? Cheaper than a Gripen E rebuild too.

Block 40 was a complete redesign, not just a local strengthening, so to bring block 30 up to that standard would be a significant task. It could be done, of course, but I have no clue what it would cost or how many hours of service could be obtained.

SpudmanWP wrote:

An "escort" for the F-35???

Are you serious?

Sounds like a manned-MALD to me Wink

My guess, I think he was actually meant using the F-16s as a weapons "launch" platform, with data-linked targetting from a F-35. If the datalink part worked, it could be a good idea for launching a bunch of JSOWs from outside the high-threat environment.

SpudmanWP wrote:

An "escort" for the F-35???

Are you serious?

Sounds like a manned-MALD to me Wink

Former SecAF Wynne even contemplated unmanned F-16s as weapons mules remotely controlled by Gen 5 jets that would take the brunt of attrition in future conflicts.

popcorn wrote:

SpudmanWP wrote:

An "escort" for the F-35???

Are you serious?

Sounds like a manned-MALD to me Wink

Former SecAF Wynne even contemplated unmanned F-16s as weapons mules remotely controlled by Gen 5 jets that would take the brunt of attrition in future conflicts.

Well, I suppose that's a reasonable use for airframes that have reached the end of their life, particularly in high intensity attrition scenarios. You would have to install the appropriate data-links.

count_to_10 wrote:

popcorn wrote:

SpudmanWP wrote:

An "escort" for the F-35???

Are you serious?

Sounds like a manned-MALD to me Wink

Former SecAF Wynne even contemplated unmanned F-16s as weapons mules remotely controlled by Gen 5 jets that would take the brunt of attrition in future conflicts.

Well, I suppose that's a reasonable use for airframes that have reached the end of their life, particularly in high intensity attrition scenarios. You would have to install the appropriate data-links.

Maybe..,the AF spent $70M for it's first batch of QF-16 to provide a more challenging target drone capability.. spend a little bit more to upgrade them for the unmanned,sidekick mission? Should be cheaper and offer more performance than an Avenger for kinetic strike.

popcorn wrote:

Maybe..,the AF spent $70M for it's first batch of QF-16 to provide a more challenging target drone capability.. spend a little bit more to upgrade them for the unmanned,sidekick mission? Should be cheaper and offer more performance than an Avenger for kinetic strike.

The QF-16s are only approved for 300 hours flight time. This would limit their use as unmanned strike aircraft. Getting more service life out of each jet would cost more $$$.

neurotech wrote:

popcorn wrote:

Maybe..,the AF spent $70M for it's first batch of QF-16 to provide a more challenging target drone capability.. spend a little bit more to upgrade them for the unmanned,sidekick mission? Should be cheaper and offer more performance than an Avenger for kinetic strike.

The QF-16s are only approved for 300 hours flight time. This would limit their use as unmanned strike aircraft. Getting more service life out of each jet would cost more $$$.

Yup, no doubt..

alloycowboy wrote:

The US Fighter fleet is basicly spent, meaning it's basicly cycled and houred out so their is nothing to sell. The pentagon is sqeezing every hour and cycle out of the airframes that they can. and then some.

Correct. Its hard to fathom how far past their original production lifespans our 4th gens are. Most of our frontline fighters were built in the late 80s/early 90s and we are still flying F-15Cs built in the early 80s. The US is probably the only country that has the money to maintain aircraft that old and still make them effective weapon systems. If we tried to sell them to other countries with less money it would end up being a waste since the majority of their time would be spent in the hangar.

By the time we would be in a position to replace our 4th gens/sell them to other nations they will be too worn and likely unsafe to fly.

Indonesia is getting 2nd hand USAF F-16s.

Forum: General F-35 Forum

Any chance of selling older aircraft once F-35 is fully op?