Forum: F-35 Armament, Stores and Tactics

Last edited by moon_light on Jun 12, 2012 - 12:27 AM; edited 1 time in total

[quote="wrightwing"]

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You'll note that on the aircraft, that have had RAM applied for RCS reduction, they still don't have all of the extra antennas, gun turrets, etc...
You can certainly reduce a ship's RCS, but not to the degree that you can with an aircraft. Just because it's bigger, isn't an advantage. You're not going to be able to get the same level of reduction, that an aircraft could. You're also pretty optimistic about the ability to detect emissions passively. Even if certain sensors are LPI, there are plenty of emissions on a ship, which aren't.

i know that the ship cannot reduce it's RCS as much as an aircraft can ( Eg : f-22 have it's rcs 100000 times smaller than F-15) Wink

however , even if the ship only reduce it's RCS by 100 times the detection range will be reduced by 4 times
what exactly emission on ship that you are talking about , may be F-35 have these emission as well ( and iam pretty sure that the sensor on ship will be hundreds times more powerful and sensitive than what the F-35 have

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The fleet would still be underway, and I doubt that an F-35 would be attacking any ship carrying Tomahawks.

tomahawk is just an example of a cruise missiles ship could use
Razz

and why the fleet have to move if they just want to be at a safe distance from the shore

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That's a very optimistic claim, to say the least.

why it is optimistic ?,as i said before even the Irbis-E can detected F-35 from 40 km and it's power is only 20 kw and only 1 m in diameter whereas ship's radar like SPY-1 is rated at 6 MW and have the diameter of 3.7 m
can you see the huge different here

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You're operating from a flawed premise to start with. It's by no means a given, that an F-35 is going to be detected anywhere near 150km, which throws off the rest of the assertions.

page 37 there information about the SPY-1D range Cool

260 km vs target have RCS = 0.01 m2 Wink

F-35 RCS = 0.005 m1 => detection range vs F-35 will be 150 km

You are assuming that you know the real F-35 cross section, rather than just an unclassified number.

count_to_10 wrote:

You are assuming that you know the real F-35 cross section, rather than just an unclassified number.

yeah may be the F-35 radar cross section is lower Wink

, but in that case the ship's radar power , detection range may be bigger as well Rolling Eyes

and in the future the radar can be update , replace while the F-35 airframe stay the same

IF the F-35 were going against a SPY-1D equipped target... it would likely drop a AShM missile like JSM, JASSM, or JSOW well outside the detection range of the SPY.

Then there's also the "ER" variants of the latter two weapons to only assist in amplifying the survivability of the F-35 platform if it is deemed necessary.

SpudmanWP wrote:

IF the F-35 were going against a SPY-1D equipped target... it would likely drop a AShM missile like JSM, JASSM, or JSOW well outside the detection range of the SPY.

the range of missile is actually not a big problem Smile

however the range at which the F-35 can lock and attack the ship is a big problem Confused

, as i listed before
+EOTS may have very long track range but the laser range is very short ( may be about 70 km like ATFLIR )
+SAR mode of APG-81 have range < 100 km
+Normal air to surface mode of APG-81 can detected normal destroyer from 200 km however with RAM paint on the ship the range will be reduce to 100 km ( if the ship 's RCS reduced by 10 times ). If the RCS of the ship reduced by 100 times compared to normal destroyer => the detection range will be only 50 km or even less
+ESM doesnot work against AESA radar
+SH-60 , E-3 are too easy too be shoot down
Wink

+not to mention that IIR missile like Jsow , NSM have big problem with target having DIRCM , flare cover , smoke cover , or ship equip with something like intermat or Camuflaje Adaptiv
+ and ship also have very strong defend like CIWS , SAM , ECM, laser (in future )

You really have no clue, do you?

The primary on board sensor for the F-35 will likely be it's ESM. Baring that, your guess (and a bad one at that) of a 200km range for the APG-81 is just laughable.

moon_light wrote:

the range of missile is actually not a big problem Smile

however the range at which the F-35 can lock and attack the ship is a big problem Confused

, as i listed before
+EOTS may have very long track range but the laser range is very short ( may be about 70 km like ATFLIR )

You wouldn't be using EOTS for targeting data for a weapon like the JASSM-ER, JSOW-ER, JSM, etc...

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+SAR mode of APG-81 have range <100> the detection range will be only 50 km or even less

You're talking out of your hindquarters here. Your entire premise is based upon one assumption after another, and then citing yourself, as validation.

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+ESM doesnot work against AESA radar

Where did you arrive at this conclusion? AESA is LPI, not NPI. This means that it's not easy to detect, but it's certainly not impossible(especially given the power levels that the ship's radar is emitting). A stealthy aircraft uses no more power than necessary, and performs quick, intermittent sweeps. A ship is going to emit a lot longer, and with much higher power. The AESA radar isn't the only emission that the ship has, and ESM can detect those too.

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+SH-60 , E-3 are too easy too be shoot down
Wink

If they fly within range of an enemy weapon system, then yes. Their sensors can outrange enemy weapons though.

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+not to mention that IIR missile like Jsow , NSM have big problem with target having DIRCM , flare cover , smoke cover , or ship equip with something like intermat or Camuflaje Adaptiv
+ and ship also have very strong defend like CIWS , SAM , ECM, laser (in future )

you're absolutely right. We should just give up, as the defenses are inpenetrable, and there are no tactics to counter them. Shocked

moon_light wrote:

Esm doesnot work against aesa radar

Kiss any credibility goodbye after this little gaffe.

wrightwing wrote:

You wouldn't be using EOTS for targeting data for a weapon like the JASSM-ER, JSOW-ER, JSM, etc...

why not , it can give the range , GPS location of target ( just like what they did with sniper-XR , ATFLIR

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You're talking out of your hindquarters here. Your entire premise is based upon one assumption after another, and then citing yourself, as validation.

do you have any better idea or sources or you r making assumption as well

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Where did you arrive at this conclusion? AESA is LPI, not NPI. This means that it's not easy to detect, but it's certainly not impossible(especially given the power levels that the ship's radar is emitting). A stealthy aircraft uses no more power than necessary, and performs quick, intermittent sweeps. A ship is going to emit a lot longer, and with much higher power. The AESA radar isn't the only emission that the ship has, and ESM can detect those too.

all right iam wrong at this , AESA is not NPI but at what range the F-35's ESM can pick up it signal is the problem , and is the signal clear enough to give the firing solution (in same way B-2 is not invisible to radar but the range that SAM radar can detected B-2 is very short that make the B-2 become deathly ) , and i dont really know what emission of the ship that you are talking about can you give me example ( and why the F-35's ESM can pick up the ship's emission but the ship's ESM can't pick up the F-35 ESM don't you think this is ridiculous )

moon dude, pls stop buying into every LM marketing advs..
Sure AESA is the future on every fighter jet.
However, the AN/APG-81 AESA-radar has its limitation like all other Radar/sensor system got.
So its not like its suddenly going to change the whole game here..

What the F-35 offer, is the fusion of several different system into a whole package.

Both Pesa and Aesa can transmit in very similar pattern and both can do the low power transmit/recieve mode that will not scream "here i am"
PESA radar also have some advatage over AESA radar as well, like the search beam cover the entire scann volume up to 4 time faster than any AESA can.
Stuff like this is very usefull in a SAR mode and terrain mapping.
If an AESA are using LPI, the scann volume/time drops even further.

My point is all this time the AN/APG-81 AESA-radar has been in development, it does not mean other Radar architects suddenly stop evolving.

Your point on ECM does not work on AESA is completly ridicules. In a heavy noise and busy enviroment, the AESA with LPI mode will face much of the same problem as every other radar out there.

Heavy ECM. You get garbage in, so what do you do? you increase the resolution. But that will only take you that far, it means it can not make something out of nothing.
The AESA radar has to power up to try to get a pointer of the SA airspace. When that happens, other can and will be searching with its beam lights on.

AESA LPI has most advantage on a one-on-one situation. Not when facing a noisy ECM battlespace(airspace).

Here is some feature on AESA LPI radar:

Many features distinguish LPI radar from conventional radar.
These include:
• Low sidelobe antennas,
• Irregular antenna scan patterns,
• High duty cycle/wide band transmission,
• Accurate power management,
• Carrier frequency,
• Very high sensitivity,
• High processing gain,
• Coherent detection,
• Monostatic/bistatic configurations.1. Low Sidelobe Antennas

This is all fine. Only problem, most other modern fire & control radar has much of the same features.

I'm thinking that haavarla didn't realize that moon_light was actually attacking the F-35.

The F-35's ESM can geo-locate (eg generate GPS coordinates) an emitter based on a vast number of different signal types. These include, but are certainly not limited to, an SPY main radar, independent CIWS radars (certainly not AESA or LPI), height-finder radars, illuminators, intership comms, satcom, leaky networking onbord the ship, etc

moon_light wrote:

why not , it can give the range , GPS location of target ( just like what they did with sniper-XR , ATFLIR

Because the range of those weapons is hundreds of miles, which would be far beyond the EOTS range. The EOTS/DAS will be used for mobile targets of opportunity, with different weapons.

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do you have any better idea or sources or you r making assumption as well

I'm not the one making the assumptions, or the assertions. I'm just pointing out the flaws in yours.

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all right iam wrong at this , AESA is not NPI but at what range the F-35's ESM can pick up it signal is the problem , and is the signal clear enough to give the firing solution (in same way B-2 is not invisible to radar but the range that SAM radar can detected B-2 is very short that make the B-2 become deathly )

Again, the ship's radar isn't going to be operating in low power modes, if it's going to have a significant search volume. So as soon as the F-35 is close enough for the RF emissions to be present, the ESM systems will be able to start their analysis. How long that takes is the question.
The non-LPI emissions will be much more detectable though, as there are plenty of emissions sources on a ship, which fall into this category. Unless the ship goes EMCON, then there's going to be quite a few electronic signals emitted(other radars, radios, datalinks, miscellaneous LAN signals, and pretty much other electronic devices in operation. The ESM system can geolocate the origin of the signal as well(especially in a multi-ship flight).

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, and i dont really know what emission of the ship that you are talking about can you give me example ( and why the F-35's ESM can pick up the ship's emission but the ship's ESM can't pick up the F-35 ESM don't you think this is ridiculous )

The amount of emissions from the F-35 will be negligible compared to the ship. You're also forgetting that in network centric warfare, the F-35 can receive information from third parties, and remain completely silent. One platform can do the scanning, while another does the attacking, preserving the element of surprise.

Forum: F-35 Armament, Stores and Tactics

F-35 in anti ship mission