Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

You are awesome. I will leave some of this chum for other people to slap apart but this is particularly funny.

Quote:

US Air Force: 418 KC-135 Stratotankers, 59 KC-10A Extenders. Total refueling capacity: 477 refueling aircraft of all types

VVS: 20 Il-86 Midas, plus buddy refueling stores on Su-24M Fencers (potentially 200 aircraft used in capacity with limited strike capability). Strike two: USAF tactical aircraft are unable to perform buddy refueling. The USAF does not possess over 12 times the number of aircraft, and if a common consensus exists, well over half the total Su-24 force (including other aircraft, such as older MiG-25s, which also can carry a heavy load, and can probably be modified to be buddy tankers).

The SU-24 carries 8,000 KG of ordinance or fuel. The KC-135 carries 90,000 KG's of useful fuel. That is roughly the all up weight of two SU-24's operating at their MTOW. You would need 4,702 SU-24's to equal the offload capability of just the KC-135's in the USAF fleet. This comparison is such a reach that it defies imagination. As I said I will leave others to address the rest of the post for the moment but good grief.

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papakaz wrote:

Okay, here's what the US Air Force will look like when compared with the Russian Air Force in 2015.

US Air Force: 187 F-22A Raptors, 63 F-35A Lightning II's, 178 F-15C Eagles, 224 F-15E Strike Eagles, 450 F-16C/D Vipers/Fighting Falcons, 246 A-10C Warthogs/Thunderbolt II's. Total tactical strength: 1,348 aircraft of all types

I think you're numbers are off a bit(by hundreds of airframes).

Quote:

VVS: 124 Su-34 Fullbacks, 188 MiG-31BM Foxfires, 241 Su-25SM Frogfeet, 553 Su-24M Fencers, 48 Su-35S Flanker-E's, 226 MiG-29SMT Fulcrums, 30 Su-30 Flanker-C's, 281 Su-27SM Flankers. Total tactical strength: 1,691 aircraft of all types. Strike one: VVS outnumbers USAF with viable legacy fleet prior to full-rate production of PAK FA and low-rate LMFS prototype production.

See first post.

wrightwing wrote:

papakaz wrote:

Okay, here's what the US Air Force will look like when compared with the Russian Air Force in 2015.

US Air Force: 187 F-22A Raptors, 63 F-35A Lightning II's, 178 F-15C Eagles, 224 F-15E Strike Eagles, 450 F-16C/D Vipers/Fighting Falcons, 246 A-10C Warthogs/Thunderbolt II's. Total tactical strength: 1,348 aircraft of all types

I think you're numbers are off a bit(by hundreds of airframes).

Quote:

VVS: 124 Su-34 Fullbacks, 188 MiG-31BM Foxfires, 241 Su-25SM Frogfeet, 553 Su-24M Fencers, 48 Su-35S Flanker-E's, 226 MiG-29SMT Fulcrums, 30 Su-30 Flanker-C's, 281 Su-27SM Flankers. Total tactical strength: 1,691 aircraft of all types. Strike one: VVS outnumbers USAF with viable legacy fleet prior to full-rate production of PAK FA and low-rate LMFS prototype production.

See first post.

All right, then can I please see what source you got that from? Also, I was attempting to approximate the exact structure of the USAF in 2015. That is why the number of Vipers in service is so low. Either way, Munny is incorrect, even if he assumes that every single Viper in the USAF inventory is active (unlikely) at that date.

The exact number of 350 Vipers was the amount that I saw that would still be active in 2025. I just tacked on 100 more active airframes, in order to have a realistic figure

The beauty of the internet is virality. Stuff spreads the same way that the DNA of a virus spreads. Carlo Kopp has used his website to spread his idiocy virally and we have yet another APA boy here to waste our time.

Go get a copy of Norman Friedman's book on netcentric warfare. Read it, think about it and come back when you're ready.

You may also want to pick up some basic books on strategy or maybe just ask why only two nukes have ever been dropped.

I like Thomas PM Barnett for strategy.

In a defensive war? The US on the defense of its own territory? And you're serious. Did you bother to look at the fiasco the Russians had sending a few units into Georgia? Do you have the first clue about the logistic and SA requirements for going on the offensive? Do you even know that no one in their right mind wants to conquer territory in the 21st century? Why would Russia invade the US? For the oil?

Seriously, I am absolutely fed up with APA boys and their sheer idiocy. One website cannot give you an education in warfare. Try reading a book. Just one.

To say nothing of the stas on aircraft posted. The USSR had 20,000 in June of '41 but who had air superiority within a few hours? Oh wait, Kopp hasn't covered that on his BS site.

Some here are getting way off topic. Get this back on topic as related to the F-22. Future off topic / irrelevant posts will be deleted. Simple as that.

Apparently India is running into the reality wall. Given the current and likely possible delays facing the basic PAK-FA, they have apparently abandoned their original plan to acquire a customized FGFA.

ttp://www.flightglobal.com/news/article ... ns-364437/

popcorn wrote:

Apparently India is running into the reality wall. Given the current and likely possible delays facing the basic PAK-FA, they have apparently abandoned their original plan to acquire a customized FGFA.

ttp://www.flightglobal.com/news/article ... ns-364437/

The above attached link is to a P8 article. Not sure if you're referring to this.

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20121016/176668178.html

Order to be cut to 144 single seaters (from 200 incl 48 double seaters) license produced by India from year 2020 onwards with 3 development aircraft delivered in year 2014, 2017 and 2019.

weasel1962 wrote:

popcorn wrote:

Apparently India is running into the reality wall. Given the current and likely possible delays facing the basic PAK-FA, they have apparently abandoned their original plan to acquire a customized FGFA.

ttp://www.flightglobal.com/news/article ... ns-364437/

The above attached link is to a P8 article. Not sure if you're referring to this.

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20121016/176668178.html

Order to be cut to 144 single seaters (from 200 incl 48 double seaters) license produced by India from year 2020 onwards with 3 development aircraft delivered in year 2014, 2017 and 2019.

My bad. Here's the same story but with some Indian flavor..
http://rupeenews.com/fgfapmf-two-seater ... sian-kits/

What is more to the point with this latest news and development on Pak-Fa and FGFA program, is that the two seater version seems to have crashed or at the very best froze completly for the time beeing.
It would be interesting to know exactly why..?
Is it pure Funding and time related, or do the VVS and IAF doctrines differ that much?
If we disregard the niche beast of Mig-31 interceptor, VVS has never been a great fan of two seater fighters. Not until now have they signed a domestic deal for Su-30SM(two seater). And a modest order it is.

About the unit numbers between India and Russia, it is too early to see where this is going.
If we compair with the IAPO MKI export and how those deals where done, well nobody had ever imagine India would procure that many MKI(import, Kits and liecens build) in the first place. And i would also like to point out that, those deals were done on a timely fasion where a follow-up order was done after the initials order.

My point is, it is too early to see just how many T-50 India will get at this point. They havent even worked out the main deal.. it should happend anytime soon, so lets wait n see.

$30B for 144 aircraft is around $203M per single-seater, presumably excluding O&S costs. I hope they get their money's worth.

Pretty affordable if you're looking at the big picture. Russia needs the IAF orders worse than the other way around. If the PAKFA program stalls they buy JSF.

Zippo chance for that, and you know it.
US can't give IAF any 5th Gen two seater, they can't give India any Kits or liecens build F-35 deal. Forget it!

India and IAF just have to swallow their grand plans or should a say dream about their FGFA program.. HAL is much to blame here.
India MoD, IAF and HAL cant all sitt on the fence and wait for Sukhoi to swing their magic wand and give them a bling bling 5Gen two seater just like that.
IAF will have to settle with the T-50 Pak-Fa variant, its that simple.

As i stated above, why the heck should Russia go the long road to get an 5Gen two seater, if they don't really want/need it.
Even US don't see a place for a two seater, so why should Russia?

haavarla wrote:

India and IAF just have to swallow their grand plans or should a say dream about their FGFA program.. HAL is much to blame here.
India MoD, IAF and HAL cant all sitt on the fence and wait for Sukhoi to swing their magic wand and give them a bling bling 5Gen two seater just like that.
IAF will have to settle with the T-50 Pak-Fa variant, its that simple.

India seems to be getting tired of always "settling" for whatever the Russians have for them. True, the Americans don't have any 5th gen 2-seaters either; but what we see here is the inability of Russia to cooperate with their only international partner on a major project. Seeing as India was planning to buy around half of all PAKs built, one would have expected Sukhoi to try a bit harder.

Yes yes, we must all blame Sukhoi for HAL inability to R&D anything for themself. Don't you see which way the river flows in this case?
If India is that disepointed in anything regarding the FGFA program, it is mostly HAL faults, not Sukhoi.

Sukhoi can't accomodate HAL wild plans for India, which totaly lack any connection with reality.
It is hopless to think Sukhoi can R&D and produce a two seater 5th Gen fighter at their level of funding.

I don't see how Sukhoi and KnAAPO can try a bit harder?
I pretty sure Sukhoi is trying as hard they can on the T-50 Pak-Fa program.

Is it so wrong to just repeat the successfull MKI deal between HAL and IAPO?
It worked out exellent.

It goes like this;
KnAAPO complete their 5th Gen Pak-Fa program, then export the first batches to IAF.
Later, KnAAPO sends Kits to HAL for assembly.
And perhaps.. if HAL can get their act together, they can manufactor the airframe with less support from Russia.
Just like the MKI deal Wink

haavarla wrote:

Yes yes, we must all blame Sukhoi for HAL inability to R&D anything for themself. Don't you see which way the river flows in this case?
If India is that disepointed in anything regarding the FGFA program, it is mostly HAL faults, not Sukhoi.

Sukhoi can't accomodate HAL wild plans for India, which totaly lack any connection with reality.
It is hopless to think Sukhoi can R&D and produce a two seater 5th Gen fighter at their level of funding.

I don't see how Sukhoi and KnAAPO can try a bit harder?
I pretty sure Sukhoi is trying as hard they can on the T-50 Pak-Fa program.

Is it so wrong to just repeat the successfull MKI deal between HAL and IAPO?
It worked out exellent.

It goes like this;
KnAAPO complete their 5th Gen Pak-Fa program, then export the first batches to IAF.
Later, KnAAPO sends Kits to HAL for assembly.
And perhaps.. if HAL can get their act together, they can manufactor the airframe with less support from Russia.
Just like the MKI deal Wink

I'm not really sure why you're haranguing me over this issue. It's the Indians who need an explanation.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

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