Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Can somebody explain how come the most technologically advance Air Force in the world with the most lethal fighter -the F-22- (and soon the F-35) still has to train their pilots for the eventuality of facing the old and infamous Vietnam era Mig-21???

VFC-13: MiG role player for COMPTUEX

Posted: May 16, 2012 - 3:03pm

By Clark Pierce (Jacksonvile.com)

Lt. Rob Blackwood is officer in charge of the three-plane detachment from VFC-13.
“The primary simulation of the F-5N Tiger II is posing as the MiG-21 – a small, fast, agile and dependable fighter introduced by the Soviet Union in 1960. Because more than 10,000 were produced, of which many are still flying today with air forces around the world, it remains a potent threat to our forces.”

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its because thats the only plane an f-5 can rep...im sure they are training against as lethal a platform as they can

Some of the derivatives of the MiG-21 have been extensively upgraded with modern avionics such as improved radar, weapons and electronic countermeasures that would allow them to be potent against even a modern F-16 (in a way not too dissimilar to how many of the F-4 Phantoms were upgraded with modern avionics to remain relevant in this post cold war era.) Still, against the F-22 those upgrades won't mean anything in the end. It's just that it's still necessary to make sure that the Raptor pilots can annihilate every MiG-21 out there due to the mass proliferation of these upgraded variants such as the MiG-21Bis and the like.

Practice makes perfect.

calel wrote:

Can somebody explain how come the most technologically advance Air Force in the world with the most lethal fighter -the F-22- (and soon the F-35) still has to train their pilots for the eventuality of facing the old and infamous Vietnam era Mig-21???

Yeah sure no problem.

Quote:

VFC-13: MiG role player for COMPTUEX

Posted: May 16, 2012 - 3:03pm

By Clark Pierce (Jacksonvile.com)

Lt. Rob Blackwood is officer in charge of the three-plane detachment from VFC-13.
“The primary simulation of the F-5N Tiger II is posing as the MiG-21 – a small, fast, agile and dependable fighter introduced by the Soviet Union in 1960. Because more than 10,000 were produced, of which many are still flying today with air forces around the world, it remains a potent threat to our forces.”

Yep... what pants said.

Makes sense, I guess. Just seems like a waste of time. If the pilots are training in the sim, sure thing. In the Raptor, waste of time+money.

Hawk,
Training against 3rd gen assets offers a different problem for your pilots to solve. It's all good training. Plus, training against F-5's is great because you can fly so much! The price tag for a 4-ship of Vipers or Eagles to come and fight you is pretty big....probably more than a 12-ship of F-5's. A 4v12 (even if the 12 are F-5's) is better than a 4v4 any day.

Plus, IMHO, training in the jet (if you can) is always better than in the sim. We like to joke that sitting in the jet reduces your IQ by 50%. It's funny, but it's true, for most of us. I am the superman in the sim. In the jet, flying the identical scenario, I'm still really good Rolling Eyes

, but I'm not nearly what I was in the sim building.

If it can get to WVR, I'm pretty sure a Tiger II could smoke a Raptor. The Fishbed-keep it above 600 mph, game over.

Kaz,
I'd wager that unless the Raptor doesn't know you're there, you'll get crushed in the Tiger OR the Fishbed WVR with a Raptor. There's no trick to fighting the Raptor, that I'm aware of. Go slow...he'll turn with you and beat ya, keep it fast...he'll run you down and beat ya, go vertical...he'll climb up and beat ya, stay long range...he'll kill you there too. He's untouchable. Your only hope is to sneak up on him (which is a very slim hope) or he screws up.

twintwinsingle wrote:

Kaz,
I'd wager that unless the Raptor doesn't know you're there, you'll get crushed in the Tiger OR the Fishbed WVR with a Raptor. There's no trick to fighting the Raptor, that I'm aware of. Go slow...he'll turn with you and beat ya, keep it fast...he'll run you down and beat ya, go vertical...he'll climb up and beat ya, stay long range...he'll kill you there too. He's untouchable. Your only hope is to sneak up on him (which is a very slim hope) or he screws up.

Which is why I said, "If". I'm not sure, but I guess a Tiger's only shot is manuevering WVR with a Raptor-and comparatively, Tiger does have pretty good maneuverability, especially against a Fishbed. Though Tiger can't maneuver in the post-stall regime (at least that I know of), I think that if a Tiger got through, a Raptor would be sorely tested in a turning fight. The Fishbed, not so much. I'd say if it was solely WVR simulated combat between an agressor F-5E or F-5N and a Raptor, Raptor's kill ratio would be considerably less that its claimed 221-0 Northern Edge ratio.

Kaz,
The F-5 is a good jet...it does stack up reasonable well with a MiG-21. However it can't maneuver with a Viper or a Hornet and both the Viper and Hornet are outclassed by the Raptor in BVR and WVR. I read the "if" in your first statement, I didn't misunderstand you. "If" the Tiger gets WVR with a Raptor and the Raptor has a tally (see's the Tiger), the Tiger will be dead with the quickness. Period.

[quote="papakaz"]

twintwinsingle wrote:

I think that if a Tiger got through, a Raptor would be sorely tested in a turning fight.

Not even close.
How many degrees/sec can the Tiger rate?
And what about the Eagle or Viper?
If you answer those questions, it will be obvious.

Huggy,
I didn't write that. You have the quotes all messed up.

Col Fornoff mentioned the MiG-21 BISON in his informal briefing back in 2008 saying that he'd flown against ones fitted with an Israeli jammer that made them pretty much 'invisible' to US legacy radars. I don't know if the Israeli's have subsequently upgraded their jammers to deal with AESA radars (a pretty tall order on the face of it) and whether or not there are upgraded MiG-21s flying still with something like this fitted, but it would be a pretty huge embarrassment to the US if they lost a Raptor to a tricked out 40(?) year old fighter. Better to be safe than sorry and make sure that if the situation ever comes up the Raptor driver has some experience of defeating the type.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Mig-21 vs. F-22