Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

f22spec wrote:

SpudmanWP wrote:

I was a tanker on the M1 and there are plenty of things that we did that could get us killed, equipment wise.

The fact is that they are whiners, are not adding anything new to the discussion, and most certainly do not qualify as "whistleblowers".

Let me put it to you in this perspective. What if you were cruising down the road in your tank and all the sudden a poisonous fume started coming out of a vent and flooded the tank and everyone in the tank died. Now imagine this happened in 14 tanks over 2 years.

14 F-22 pilots have been killed by the OBOGS? How did they manage to land their planes while dead? Or have we lost 14 F-22s?

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sferrin wrote:

f22spec wrote:

SpudmanWP wrote:

I was a tanker on the M1 and there are plenty of things that we did that could get us killed, equipment wise.

The fact is that they are whiners, are not adding anything new to the discussion, and most certainly do not qualify as "whistleblowers".

Let me put it to you in this perspective. What if you were cruising down the road in your tank and all the sudden a poisonous fume started coming out of a vent and flooded the tank and everyone in the tank died. Now imagine this happened in 14 tanks over 2 years.

14 F-22 pilots have been killed by the OBOGS? How did they manage to land their planes while dead? Or have we lost 14 F-22s?

I thought it was 14 non-fatal incidents. Linking the two fatal F-22 crashes directly to OBOGS is a stretch. The crash in Alaska was partially due to a bleed air shutdown, which disabled the OBOGS. It's in the mishap report.
http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/ExecSum2011/F-22A_AK_16%20Nov%2010.pdf

I personally believe that the F-22 oxygen supply valve should be designed try to maintain pressure without suffocating the pilot.

Also, I found a copy of the Navy Safety Center Approach magazine on hypoxia which may be interesting;
http://www.public.navy.mil/navsafecen/Documents/media/approach/issues/App_Jul-Aug10.pdf

Looks like more fallout from the 60 minutes story.

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handyman wrote:

Could it be that some of the pilots are simply not physically fit enough to fly this plane? After all it is vastly more maneuverable than anything that came before it and all the O2 in the world isn't going to help you if the blood rushes out of your brain. Maybe thats why it seems like the AF is dragging its feet on this and not finding anything technically wrong.

ALOC would pass after 30-60 seconds assuming the aircraft recovers to straight and level. These symptoms are more like decompression sickness or other physiological issue not directly related to high Gs.

I'm pretty sure that the F-22 is one of those jets where pilots either pass the centrifuge test or do not fly the jet. If I recall correctly, audio analysis of the Anti-G Straining Maneuver by the flight surgeon is required as part of recurrent qualifications.

There are a few 50+ year old competition pilots who pull 12Gs at low level during aerobatic flights, without experiencing the kind of problems reported by the F-22 pilots.

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4 hours ago

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Panetta restricts F-22 flights due to oxygen system complaints

Panetta orders restrictions for F-22 flights

Cnbc's Jane Wells reports that Defense Secretary Leon Panetta has ordered flight restrictions on the F-22 jet, due to continued oxygen supply problems in the jet. By Jim Miklaszewski, NBC News Defense Secretary Leon Panetta has ordered the Air Force to restrict flights of its new F-22 stealth fighters because of continuing problems with the aircraft's oxygen system.

At least 22 pilots have suffered from oxygen deprivation while in flight since April 2008.

Panetta on Tuesday ordered that all F-22 flights remain within a "proximate distance" of an airfield in case a pilot should suffer from a hypoxia event and be forced to land. That will force an immediate end to F-22 patrol missions over Alaska.

Panetta also ordered the Air Force to accelerate installment of a backup oxygen system in all F-22s and provide monthly progress reports on efforts to identify the problem with the current oxygen system. The Air Force does not expect to begin installing automatic backup oxygen systems until December of this year.

popcorn wrote:

Panetta on Tuesday ordered that all F-22 flights remain within a "proximate distance" of an airfield in case a pilot should suffer from a hypoxia event and be forced to land. That will force an immediate end to F-22 patrol missions over Alaska.

LoL...that won't end flights over Alaska. They will operate within the required distance just like the notice says.

I wonder what the bpa counts are in these pilots after continuous exposure to the cockpit.

neurotech wrote:

The crash in Alaska was partially due to a bleed air shutdown, which disabled the OBOGS. It's in the mishap report.
http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/ExecSum2011/F-22A_AK_16%20Nov%2010.pdf

Having read this, it appears to me that the root cause was that the jet's computer made several veyr harsh decisions including shutting down the OBOGS, in an attempt to contain this 'bleed air' situation.

I'm not sure how severe was this 'bleed air' thing but why a machine's cold thinking is put in precedence of a human's brain?

Would handicap the aircraft and mission capability so significantly just to say screw it and throw a LOx system in it?

Sounds like it isn't actually a low-oxygen problem. Getting extra oxygen doesn't help if, say, you are being killed by carbon monoxide.

A backup O2 system is on the way--by 2014. Nice to see a sense of urgency and priority...

http://www.dailypress.com/news/military ... 6704.story

Installation schedule

Before the Air Force begins installing a backup oxygen system, the system will have to be qualified and flight-tested. That is expected to wrap up in November, according to a statement issued Thursday. The first Raptor will be retro-fitted with the new system in December.
Starting in January 2013, the Air Force expects to retrofit 10 Raptors per month, using a combination of military and civilian contractors. The fleet upgrade will be completed in June 2014 at an approximate cost of $44 million.
There will be a second phase to the upgrade, but the Air Force is still working out those details, the statement said.
The new system, known in military parlance as an A-BOS, or Auto Back-Up Oxygen System, will automatically activate in the event of rapid decompression or a shutdown of the environmental control system. It can be manually activated at any time. Shrug

USAF response to ABC stories this month.

http://www.afa.org/edop/2012/AF%20State ... verage.pdf

munny wrote:

USAF response to ABC stories this month.

http://www.afa.org/edop/2012/AF%20State ... verage.pdf

A big F U to the alphabet news newtworks. Little wonder why their ratings keep going down the drain.

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

munny wrote:

USAF response to ABC stories this month.

http://www.afa.org/edop/2012/AF%20State ... verage.pdf

A big F U to the alphabet news newtworks. Little wonder why their ratings keep going down the drain.

Kudos to whatever PA officer wrote that. The MSM needs to stop spinning things.
Cheers

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

60 Minutes story on F-22 pilots