Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

I'm am trying to find accurate apples to apples figures for the flight hour costs, which are hard to find. The closest figure that I've seen was in the the 'leaked slides' from Navair; F/A-18A-D $18k cost per flying, F-35 $30k per flight hour.

This doesn't quite mesh with the comptroller 2011 report, which lists the F/A-18C at $10k CPFH.
The assumption is that the $18k/hr figure is average CPFH includes being deployed to the carrier, where operational costs and tanker expenses are included. The comptrollers $10k CPFH is for land-based operations. A F/A-18E/F CPFH is a fraction cheaper. An educated guess is that the F-35 is probably 30%-50% more than the F/A-18.

Here is the link to the Comptroller 2011 report;
http://comptroller.defense.gov/rates/fy2011/2011_f.pdf

Any comments or ideas?

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I would think the CPFH could vary wildly depending on who's doing the calculating, what costs they include or exclude, and what their agenda is. I'm also curious and suspicious of a leaked figure showing a CPFH 75% higher than an F-18A-D. Again, what is the agenda of the person who "leaked" that number and on what is it based?

There isn't enough data yet to establish the cost per flight hour for the F-35 as it is only 25% through flight test. As the F-35 matures the number of maintenance hours per hour of flight will decrease droping the cost per flight hour. Also there is a lot new technology on the F-35 designed to reduce its maintenace costs.

https://f35.com/the-f-35/core-principles/SupportableNew.aspx

Canada has assumed that the F-35 costs for maintenance will be similar to the F-18 but this really isn't a fair or a good accounting assement since the F-18 is 30-40 years older then the F-35. It's like comparing a 1970's Chevy Vega to a 2012 Chevy Cruze.

Of course, not factored in the equation is that you would have to operate and sustain several legacy jets to approximate the performance,of a,single F-35.

Of course, not factored in the equation is that you would have to operate and sustain several legacy jets to approximate the performance,of a,single F-35.

stereospace wrote:

I would think the CPFH could vary wildly depending on who's doing the calculating, what costs they include or exclude, and what their agenda is. I'm also curious and suspicious of a leaked figure showing a CPFH 75% higher than an F-18A-D. Again, what is the agenda of the person who "leaked" that number and on what is it based?

It originally came from NAVAIR. I say "leaked" because they were trying to show how affordable the F-35 is to operate, and didn't intend to release those numbers publicly, and the particular slide on p10 was included accidently.

http://startelegram.typepad.com/files/navy-don_f-35_total-cost-of-ownership_04jan10.pdf

alloycowboy wrote:

Canada has assumed that the F-35 costs for maintenance will be similar to the F-18 but this really isn't a fair or a good accounting assement since the F-18 is 30-40 years older then the F-35. It's like comparing a 1970's Chevy Vega to a 2012 Chevy Cruze.

The F-22 is still more expensive to maintain than a F-15. Most of the reports put the F/A-18E/F as cheaper to maintain than the older F/A-18s. It would be interesting to see what a low hours F/A-18C costs to maintain vs a F/A-18E. The F/A-18E/F was designed to be easier and cheaper to maintain.

'neurotech' the PDF you have a link for above was discussed on another thread way back (scroll down):

USN Concerned over F-35 Costs 15 Jan 2010

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... p;start=15

Same [edited] PDF download either from F-16.net
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_download-id-12778.html
or
DewLine Story here with LM rebuttal below:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... -stud.html

Lockheed's statement
"Lockheed Martin and the JSF Program Office estimate that life-cycle support costs for the F-35 will be significantly lower than those for the F-16, F/A-18 and the AV-8B based on our acquisition approach, Air System design, detailed cost models and economies of scale.

Unlike previous fighter development programs, supportability is a major contractual requirement on F-35, with half of the program's Key Performance Parameters dedicated to sustainment.

F-35 has a design requirement to be twice as reliable and take half the time to repair as the airplanes it is replacing. These requirements influenced every design trade, aircraft configuration decision, and component selection, as well as the strategy for performance-based logistics.

Achievement of our supportability goal is accomplished through rigorous system qualification testing and the application of new, advanced diagnostic and prognostic technologies. F-35 Air System design criteria have imposed the most stringent reliability, logistic footprint and sortie-generation rate requirements of any fighter program.

In addition, with more than 3000 aircraft in the baseline program and potentially 4500 aircraft with additional Foreign Military Sales, the program economies of scale are unprecedented and will be a significant economic factor favorable to F-35.

F-35 will most certainly be less expensive to operate than different platforms operated in small numbers by individual services, allowing countries to share training, maintenance, overhaul, repair and supply costs. Also, F-35 is procuring the spares along with the original production parts to reduce sustainment costs.

All of these improvements are reflected in the F-35 Program's annual detailed life cycle cost estimating process which involves all participating services. This process looks at every element of the life cycle costs for the next 65 years. The NAVAIR figures cited in the leaked internal document are an independent assessment and are not definitive.

The F-35 program is committed to working with the JSF Program Office and Naval Air Systems Command to develop the most accurate estimate possible of F-35 life-cycle support."

@Spazinbad - Thanks for the links.

My guess is that NAVAIR will be fuming the first time an F-35 aircraft goes to the boneyard. The Navy sent some relatively new F/A-18As to the boneyard, because of specific structural issues mainly relating to the center body. I'm not sure how many F/A-18Cs have been sent to the boneyard, although that will probably increase in the next 8-10 years.

I don't think true sustainment costs will be known until 5-10 years after IOC and all the wrinkles ironed out.

Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

F-35 vs F/A-18: Cost per flight hour