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F-14, Turkey or Tom Cruise-Worthy?



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haavarla
PostPosted: May 10, 2012 - 02:17 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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cola wrote:
haavarla wrote:
So now i can't quote or use his quote as sources to prove you wrong, or prove my point?

No, you can't.
You don't know what he said in the first place, obviously you don't know what I said neither, you don't know how flow separation works in relationship with Reynolds number and angle of incidence, you don't know how's wing designed for controlled stall and you can't figure the Tail slide is a symmetrical stall.

So, you see, no.
You don't get to quote no one and particularly not him.


Funny. This is just what John Farley mention.
He did not understand how they(Sukhoi) manage to create a Symmetrical airflow over the wings of the Su-27.
Obviously it meant long hours in the wind tunnel,
Some trial end error.
The wings of the Su-27 would not perform as outstanding without the LERX and long nose, feeding the air aft to LERX and wings.
All these design are connected to better make it a symmetrical airflow design.
The wide space between the Stabz also help due to the position where the airflow(air vortices) meet the stabz are mostly unspoiled in high alpha turns.

The large Stabz and ventral strakes aid in the forward horisontal directional stability.

You can take your arrogance, raynolds number and angle of incidence, and stuff it
You do not get to tell other whom to quote or not.

I may not know how to design such wings and airframe.
John Farley didn't know how they did it.
AND sure as hell you don't know eighter.

Hense why John Farley, and i quote his famous lines:
What the Russians showed us in Paris, made all the western fighters design look very conventional.


Last edited by haavarla on May 11, 2012 - 08:44 AM; edited 3 times in total
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Last edited by haavarla on May 11, 2012 - 08:44 AM; edited 3 times in total
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cola
PostPosted: May 10, 2012 - 10:34 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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haavarla wrote:
You can take your arrogance, raynolds number and angle of incidence, and stuff it

So, I'm suppose to "stuff it", just because you don't know what we're talking about?
Kid, what's your problem?
Quote:
Hense why John Farley quoted the famous lines:
What the Russians showed us in Paris, made all the western fighters design look very convential.

Seriously?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2-zzmCmMVI

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shingen
PostPosted: May 11, 2012 - 12:36 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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What about the F-14?

The post quoting the pilot seems interesting but sounds like boasting. Never seen anything like it before.

I'd be interested to know at about what range the Sparrows of that time could be launched.
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firstimpulse
PostPosted: May 26, 2012 - 01:44 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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The F-14 is by far the best looking 4th gen fighter imho, although its combat capabilites against other 4th gens in dogfighting is debatable. At long range, no other fighter could really touch it, except for the F-15. Although one must note that those huge AIM-54s couldn't hit anything smaller than a Tu-95. The Sparrows would've been a more reliable ranged weapon. Of course, close up the F-14 is still potent. The swing wings and podded engine design make it more manuverable than many Air Force pilots would like to admit. It out turned and out-fought two different types of Soviet engineered 3rd gen fighters in close combat over its service career. One must remember that most of the experts on this forum are not only AF and not USN, but single-engine style pilots who flew the antithesis of the F-14, the F-16. From what I've seen, they're not the biggest fans of any Navy craft, espescially something huge and heavy with a massive radar/missile setup like the Tomcat.

Anything with curves like the Cat' is Cruise worthy.
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southernphantom
PostPosted: May 26, 2012 - 02:49 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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The Turkey was extremely impressive for its day. Now, it's a bit outdated, but who's to say what would have resulted had the political maneuvering that produced the Super Hornet not occurred. I'm personally pro-heavy fighter, as in a twin-engine two-seat aircraft with extreme payload and sensor capability. The Tomcat, Beagle, Flanker-H, and Super Hornet are the prime examples of this philosophy.
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tacf-x
PostPosted: May 26, 2012 - 03:58 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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firstimpulse wrote:
On Topic
The F-14 is by far the best looking 4th gen fighter imho, although its combat capabilites against other 4th gens in dogfighting is debatable. At long range, no other fighter could really touch it, except for the F-15. Although one must note that those huge AIM-54s couldn't hit anything smaller than a Tu-95. The Sparrows would've been a more reliable ranged weapon. Of course, close up the F-14 is still potent. The swing wings and podded engine design make it more manuverable than many Air Force pilots would like to admit. It out turned and out-fought two different types of Soviet engineered 3rd gen fighters in close combat over its service career. One must remember that most of the experts on this forum are not only AF and not USN, but single-engine style pilots who flew the antithesis of the F-14, the F-16. From what I've seen, they're not the biggest fans of any Navy craft, espescially something huge and heavy with a massive radar/missile setup like the Tomcat.

Anything with curves like the Cat' is Cruise worthy.


The podded engine design makes for excessive amounts of wetted area resulting in higher skin friction drag. The glove housings for the VG wings would cause all kinds of drag due to amplifying frontal area, increasing wetted area, etc. The F-14 would be prone to flat spins inherent to the 3-body fuselage design when an engine would fail. Also there's the fact that all of those right angled corners formed between the nacelles and the flat tunnel between them (along with the glove) would be liable to cause interference drag where the boundary layers of the airflow at these corners would interact and cause large pressure gradients between the fore and aft ends of the aircraft.

Then there's the fact that the engines were terrible (at least while the TF-30s were fitted) and even with the newer ones on the F-14D the T/W was never that great. All of this combines to form highly unfavorable specific excess power ratings compared to the F-15 and F-16. As a result there really isn't much going for it aerodynamically and I think it is justified when some on this forum claim it is severely overrated compared to the fighter idolized by this website.

Then there's another problem with the F-14's wing design at least when the wings are swept at a fairly large angle: They will likely stall at the tips first as the tips are swept significantly far aft of the root so flow separation might occur there first. As a result roll control might be easily lost.
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madrat
PostPosted: May 26, 2012 - 05:02 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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firstimpulse wrote:
On Topic
Although one must note that those huge AIM-54s couldn't hit anything smaller than a Tu-95.


Funny, it didn't have problems hitting small drones.
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haavarla
PostPosted: May 26, 2012 - 11:19 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Quote:

The podded engine design makes for excessive amounts of wetted area resulting in higher skin friction drag. The glove housings for the VG wings would cause all kinds of drag due to amplifying frontal area, increasing wetted area, etc. The F-14 would be prone to flat spins inherent to the 3-body fuselage design when an engine would fail. Also there's the fact that all of those right angled corners formed between the nacelles and the flat tunnel between them (along with the glove) would be liable to cause interference drag where the boundary layers of the airflow at these corners would interact and cause large pressure gradients between the fore and aft ends of the aircraft.


Agreed. On the Mig-29 and Su-27, they fixed this with slightly angled and curved the intakes inward to each other, derby nullify the interference drag between the tunnels. Alltough both Su-27 and Mig-29 shape are slightly different from the F-14 Tunnel.
Also the intakes on the F-14 are positioned more forward compaired to Mig/Su design. This also has to do with how efficient the airflow are guided into the air-intakes.
The devil are in the details on aerodynamic design.
Anyway, the real setback was not any of this, it was the engine and wing design. When the F-14 was design to achieve good low speed handeling upon landing on Carriers. There was room for improvments. There was the constant fight the keep it on the deck senter-line. Hard rudder had to be applied. and throttle handeling was a pain, in unfavored weather conditions.
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firstimpulse
PostPosted: May 27, 2012 - 03:33 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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madrat wrote:

Funny, it didn't have problems hitting small drones.


...which were flying straight and level, had huge radar returns, and used no countermeasures. And they still couldn't get more than an 85% kill ratio on those. From what I've read at least.

haavarla wrote:
Quote:

The podded engine design makes for excessive amounts of wetted area resulting in higher skin friction drag. The glove housings for the VG wings would cause all kinds of drag due to amplifying frontal area, increasing wetted area, etc. The F-14 would be prone to flat spins inherent to the 3-body fuselage design when an engine would fail. Also there's the fact that all of those right angled corners formed between the nacelles and the flat tunnel between them (along with the glove) would be liable to cause interference drag where the boundary layers of the airflow at these corners would interact and cause large pressure gradients between the fore and aft ends of the aircraft.


Agreed. On the Mig-29 and Su-27, they fixed this with slightly angled and curved the intakes inward to each other, derby nullify the interference drag between the tunnels. Alltough both Su-27 and Mig-29 shape are slightly different from the F-14 Tunnel.
Also the intakes on the F-14 are positioned more forward compaired to Mig/Su design. This also has to do with how efficient the airflow are guided into the air-intakes.
The devil are in the details on aerodynamic design.
Anyway, the real setback was not any of this, it was the engine and wing design. When the F-14 was design to achieve good low speed handeling upon landing on Carriers. There was room for improvments. There was the constant fight the keep it on the deck senter-line. Hard rudder had to be applied. and throttle handeling was a pain, in unfavored weather conditions.


So, drag overkill with no extra lift? I'm no aerodynamics expert, but I don't think one would give all that up with no silver lining. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong though.



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And the Tomcat's intakes look canted inward to me, just as it's Soviet counterparts were.
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madrat
PostPosted: May 27, 2012 - 03:55 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Actually, that is not true the AIM-54 live fire tests involved straight flying targets. Rather the majority of such tests involved mauevering targets including at times purposing flying the beam to rely on the command guidance at its design limit. It also proved to hit rolling targets. And the emitters that target drones carry are meant to stress individual phases of the intercept to match test criteria. Tests do not have to be accurate portrayals of wartime to be worthwhile.
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geogen
PostPosted: May 27, 2012 - 05:27 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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madrat wrote:
firstimpulse wrote:
On Topic
Although one must note that those huge AIM-54s couldn't hit anything smaller than a Tu-95.


Funny, it didn't have problems hitting small drones.


Fair rebuttal... and if upgraded F-14X platforms were still a mainstay aircraft in operation for the next 20 years, we'd probably be seeing USN integrate AIM-174 derivatives (perhaps w/ multi-type seekers) in the near-term as a follow-on to the requirement and capability.

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johnwill
PostPosted: May 27, 2012 - 07:36 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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tacf-x wrote:

Then there's another problem with the F-14's wing design at least when the wings are swept at a fairly large angle: They will likely stall at the tips first as the tips are swept significantly far aft of the root so flow separation might occur there first. As a result roll control might be easily lost.


Not to worry. When the wings are swept at fairly large angles, roll control is provided by horizontal tails and rudders, not the wing spoilers. There are no ailerons.
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