Forum: Technology

Myself being a huge high tech weaponry guy, have always had questions about an EMP attack.

I believe that the US is the most vulnerable country to this attack. Since we are the most developed, and most dependent country on computers.

How can we be prepared for this type of attack? Since Russia has the unvelied its newest, and worlds most powerfull EMP bomb early in 2005, why are we not taking a tough stance on them.

How bad would an EMP cripple us?

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Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

Paging Mr. Gums, Mr. Gums you're needed to respond to a Nuclear Asset question. Very Happy

Seriously, check out this for starters: http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm (Google is your friend)

If a sovereign nation detonated a nuclear device above the U.S. (for significant EMP effects it needs to be in the upper atmosphere) they would be risking a "retaliation in kind", which would probably involve a salvo of ICBMs and the subsequent ownership of a self-lighting glass parking lot. And with G.W. on the trigger, I don't think any world leader is that dumb or crazy.

For a terrorist to employ such a weapon, they'd need to get their hands on a fully operational ICBM with a big unitary warhead (i.e. not a MIRV) as well as the knowhow to set it to detonate in the upper atmosphere. And I think every country on the planet knows that if an ICBM is launched from their soil, even if the government didn't launch it, would result in serious uglification. "Oops, we didn't know... sorry" probably won't fly.

On a tangent, one thing that bothers me is calling "National Missile Defense" a protection against terror. BS. If a terrorist somehow got ahold of a nuke, why wouldn't they just disguise the thing as a bale of pot and bring it into this country? NMD is a boondoggle left over from the Cold War, and the current system in development has so many "only ifs" in its design that it is next to useless.

Alright! Another thread about Nuke-U-ler Weapons! Laughing

Let's get Gums!

Ok, all kidding aside, an EMP placed in the right place (read that, Manhattan) would fry every electronic circuit board which happens to be on and/or plugged in at the time...from computers and power generators, down to your toaster and boom box.

Nukes cause EMPs, so really I'd be more worried about my proximity to the nuclear blast than anything else.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Guysmiley wrote:

Paging Mr. Gums, Mr. Gums you're needed to respond to a Nuclear Asset question. Very Happy

TC wrote:

Alright! Another thread about Nuke-U-ler Weapons! Laughing

Let's get Gums!

3

!!!

Actually, I've seen some ways to do an EMP bomb that don't involve a Weapon of Mass Destruction Wink

. Basically, the way it works is that you have an energized coil of wire wrapped around a core of high explosives. When the explosives detonate from one end to the other, they create a continuously moving short circuit which somehow creates the EMP. At least that's the way I remember it from the article I remember reading - I think it was in Popular Science, but I could be wrong.

I'm interested in this one myself as I can only imagine how badly it would screw up Wall Street if someone did it right. There wouldn't be any radiation like a nuke and they could disguise it as a "normal" terrorist bombing if they wanted to increase the confusion afterwords.

Just curious - does anyone know what kind of effect an EMP would have on magnetic recording media like hard drives (sts) or magnetic tapes? Most of the world has moved to using optical media like CDs and DVDs for data storage, but everyone still has a hard drive (sts) in their computer and most major data backups are still on good old magnetic tape due to the huge data capacity of those tapes.

If someone ever set off a "clean" EMP device, I sincerely hope I've gotten rid of my 2002 Cavalier by then and gone to my next planned car - the 1968 to 1973 Corvette Stingray Very Happy

! At least the Stingray doesn't have any computers onboard that are critical to making the car work Wink

!

Guysmiley wrote:

If a terrorist somehow got ahold of a nuke, why wouldn't they just disguise the thing as a bale of pot and bring it into this country?

!!! Yeah, the border patrol guys would probably miss that one completely Laughing

!!!

Quote:

If someone ever set off a "clean" EMP device, I sincerely hope I've gotten rid of my 2002 Cavalier by then and gone to my next planned car - the 1968 to 1973 Corvette Stingray ! At least the Stingray doesn't have any computers onboard that are critical to making the car work !

My 64 VW bug will still run too.

Its an EWO SIOP response so the host country doing it, writes their own death warrent. Anything that attempts to degrade or destroy our prime conus sat / com / C3 ability is considered a dire threat and you can't assume anything else except that it is part of a major attack upon us that requires all the key turners to be ready to do their job, if the word is given.

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

Regarding "clean" EMP devices (like in Ocean's Eleven for example). In real life they aren't anywhere near that powerful. You have to understand the insane amount of energy a nuke puts out. And it all happens in a split second, which is what generates the EMP. Detonating a HE based EMP device in the upper atmosphere would be a fart in a whirlwind.

A method of shielding against EMP is to enclose the device in a grounded metal box. And magnetic media is mostly safe, what really are vulnerable are CMOS transistor gates in integrated circuts. These are the kind of chips that can be damaged from static electricity (same reason PC techs wear grounding straps). So on a hard drive the platter with data on it probably will survive but the controller circuitry can get toasted. Which, yes would render the drive inoperative, but the data could be recovered.

I'm with Guysmiley,

1. microelectronic devices would be the ones at high risk from an over-induction of current.
2. I can see how an EMP would put flying aircraft at risk, but landed aircraft are excelent Faraday cages.

The first day EMP bombs required an ICBM delivery system to be activated. But the newest design EMPs can be left in a garbage bin, in downtown Manhattan and be activated from anywhere. So it is a real threat, but things have to get pretty bad between the superpowers for it to get to that point. I mean, for the buck you get allot of bang. So its an effecient way of making your enemy powerless for some time.

parrothead wrote:

At least the Stingray doesn't have any computers onboard that are critical to making the car work Wink

!

It still has a starter solenoid, a wire harness, and a battery. A nuke EMP will render all of that useless as well.

C'mon Gums! Lay it in on us! Laughing

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

Quote:

But the newest design EMPs can be left in a garbage bin, in downtown Manhattan and be activated from anywhere.

An EMP device detonated at ground level (nuclear or no) will not have anywhere near the same area of effect as a nuclear detonation from 200-400km high. It could if placed in the right way disrupt a city, but a megaton class exoatmospheric detonation could knock out a country.

The reason EMP isn't as big a problem from weapons detonated at altitudes optimized for blast effect is because it the gamma activity is a line of sight affair, coupled with

Quote:

an asymmetrical deposition of electrons...because some electrons emitted downward are trapped in the upper millimeter of the Earth’s surface while others, moving upward and outward, can travel long distances in the atmosphere, producing ionization and charge separation

(from fas.org)

True, if the bomb is detonated at an altitude- than its effects will be much more greater. But still todays most modern mobile EMPs can be detonated by anyone/anywhere with a brain. Any way you look at it, you dont want this thing going off in your city. Or in a very "important" part of the city.

TC wrote:

parrothead wrote:

At least the Stingray doesn't have any computers onboard that are critical to making the car work Wink

!

It still has a starter solenoid, a wire harness, and a battery. A nuke EMP will render all of that useless as well.

C'mon Gums! Lay it in on us! Laughing

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

I always thought it just affected integrated circuits Shocked

! Oh well, I'll just get one of those battery disconnect things that lets you quickly disconnect the battery for anti-theft purposes - no circuit no problem, right? I figure the factory AM/FM/CB or AM/FM/8 track might fry, but at least I'll have wheels Cool

!

Ducatist wrote:

True, if the bomb is detonated at an altitude- than its effects will be much more greater. But still todays most modern mobile EMPs can be detonated by anyone/anywhere with a brain. Any way you look at it, you dont want this thing going off in your city. Or in a very "important" part of the city.

EMP goes off in a city, no more city, simple as that- these are nukes.

Second of all if one goes off, at least 72 Trident missiles are going to be flying within about 30 minutes. That's around 600 nuclear warheads. Could also be called end of the world.

The weapon is not worth the risk by any stretch of imagination.

Hmmmmmmmm......................

Something smells good in the water drifting by the lazy fish.

Think the old mossback, 12 pound bass is gonna bite?

YOU BETCHYA!!!!!

For all the terrorists out there, go look someplace else.

If I had a 1980-something car with the first-generation electronic ignition, I would be scared. If I had a brand-new Beamer, I wouldn't worry too much.

Hell, this very PC had a lightning strike a year and a half ago, and all it did was fry the modem and cause some occasional glitches in the USB card (still a problem from time to time).

The Vipers I flew had mid-70's FLCS computers. USAF and the EPG were very concerned about EMP, considering the WW3 scenario we built the thing for. So guess what? My wingie took a lightning strike right at the front of the canopy (about a foot and a half from the FLCS boxes). All the panel lights came on. Reset the stupid lights. Keep flying. Hmmmmmmm.

Think we had figured out some ways to keep truckin' in a harsh EMP environment? And this was 1970's tech. So go someplace else if you wanna inflict pain and misery.

The kinda EMP stuff I personally want is more related to nuisance noise and interference on my radio.

So a group of us are covertly developing a "thumper buster". You all know the scenario.

Some yute pulls up at the traffic signal and your guts start to move with the thump, thump, thump, thump. Been there? Wanna make that clueless sucker regret his 200 watt amp? So you flick the switch on your "buster" and his CD sampling doofer gets 100 watts of pure noise, which is then amplified to a zillion watts right inside his cheap import. Wow! Would be like Michael Fox in "Back to the Future". Ear damage not a problem in court, as we would have witnesses testifying that the stupid yute already had permanent ear damage from his basic thumper doofer. The blown out speakers might also be explained by "atmospheric phenomena" or sunspots or global warming or something. Now all the glass damage could be another issue( heh heh, I can just see all the particles of his windshield all over the hood, still chuckling). But I basically like the concept, and am working hard to perfect it so as not to "boom" some grandma playing Beethoven on her Caddy's CD.

later, I got things to do, circuits to design, pilot-vehicle-interface issues to resolve for we Ford Ranger folks with the Thumper Buster.

Forum: Technology

EMP Bomb