Forum: General F-16 forum

The general consensus seems to be that the F-15 has around 105.5-107.5 kills and 0 losses in air to air combat.

Does anyone know the figure for the F-16? I've seen widely varying numbers across the internet.

F-16.net Sponsor

Safe to say that ratio highly favors the Viper!

When the ratios are THAT high, does it matter what the specific number comes out to be?

Shrug

TEG

I think that at most 7 Vipers have been lost in air-to-air combat, two of these are confirmed, the other five are alleged kills by Syrian Floggers and seem rather dubious. I'd be interested to hear a 3rd-party analysis and what the IDF/AF has to say about it. Losses wouldn't surprise me at all, but 5 seems rather high.

http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/bv/mig23/mig23.html

southernphantom wrote:

I think that at most 7 Vipers have been lost in air-to-air combat, two of these are confirmed, the other five are alleged kills by Syrian Floggers and seem rather dubious. I'd be interested to hear a 3rd-party analysis and what the IDF/AF has to say about it. Losses wouldn't surprise me at all, but 5 seems rather high.

http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/bv/mig23/mig23.html

I'd be very skeptical about the .ru claims. A-any F-16 shot down over Syrian soil would be pretty easy to account for, by producing evidence from crash sites. B-5 less F-16s/pilots on the tarmac, would be kind of hard to conceal.

wrightwing wrote:

southernphantom wrote:

I think that at most 7 Vipers have been lost in air-to-air combat, two of these are confirmed, the other five are alleged kills by Syrian Floggers and seem rather dubious. I'd be interested to hear a 3rd-party analysis and what the IDF/AF has to say about it. Losses wouldn't surprise me at all, but 5 seems rather high.

http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/bv/mig23/mig23.html

I'd be very skeptical about the .ru claims. A-any F-16 shot down over Syrian soil would be pretty easy to account for, by producing evidence from crash sites. B-5 less F-16s/pilots on the tarmac, would be kind of hard to conceal.

I'd tend to side with you on this one, especially seeing as the site I referenced is also claiming ~5 Flogger kills over Phantoms.

southernphantom wrote:

wrightwing wrote:

southernphantom wrote:

I think that at most 7 Vipers have been lost in air-to-air combat, two of these are confirmed, the other five are alleged kills by Syrian Floggers and seem rather dubious. I'd be interested to hear a 3rd-party analysis and what the IDF/AF has to say about it. Losses wouldn't surprise me at all, but 5 seems rather high.

http://www.airwar.ru/history/locwar/bv/mig23/mig23.html

I'd be very skeptical about the .ru claims. A-any F-16 shot down over Syrian soil would be pretty easy to account for, by producing evidence from crash sites. B-5 less F-16s/pilots on the tarmac, would be kind of hard to conceal.

I'd tend to side with you on this one, especially seeing as the site I referenced is also claiming ~5 Flogger kills over Phantoms.

Especially considering that the Israelis had F-15s flying CAP, E-2Cs providing intercept vectors/situational awareness, all aspect missiles, far better pilots. A Flogger with a downgraded radar, and without look down shoot down radar/all aspect missiles, isn't going to fare well with those odds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16_Fight ... al_history

Roughly 52:0 from the looks of it

...not counting the UAV's the Israeli's have taken out Wink

Whoops, meant to say Eagles. Mental slip, I was writing something about F-4s at the time.

Boman wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16_Fighting_Falcon_operational_history

Roughly 52:0 from the looks of it

The TuAF lost one to a Greek M2K, and Pakistan lost one to disputed causes, probably friendly fire, in the Soviet war in Afghanistan. That record should probably be 52:1, or 52:2 if you count friendly fire.

Years ago when Air Combat Information Group (ACIG) had compiled a listings of aircraft shot down. Combing to the pages I created a kill listing for the F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, F/A-18s, MiG-29s & Su-27s! I found the F-16s had a kill ratio of 92:13. The greatest number of kills were done by the Israeli AF with 52 kills (2 unconfirmed), the Pakistani AF 24 kills against the Afghanistan AF (many are unconfirmed but, Soviet instructor pilots died!) The Greek "EPA" and Turkish "THK" AFs shot down 15 of total others F-16s! One F-16D (THK) was shot down by an M-2000EG (EPA) with a Magic R.550 Missile! The USAF has five confirmed kills withe F-16.
The USAF F-16s have shot down six enemy fighters.
One of the Dutch AF's F-16 shot down one during the conflict over Yugoslavia.
INDIA claims no F-16 KILLS in their conflict against the Pakistan AF!!

I probably missed one or two kills!

The first AIM-120A AMRAAM fired in combat downed an Iraqi MiG-25, 20 miles inside the no-fly zone. It also represents the 1st USAF air-to-air kill by an F-16. The first AMRAAM kill was by a USAF F-16 against an Iraqi MiG-25.

SOME REFERNCES;
PAF Vs Indian AF
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_324.shtml
http://home.comcast.net/~anneled/ColdWar.html

Yugoslavian Conflict
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_302.shtml

Iraqi Conflict
The first AIM-120A AMRAAM fired in combat downed an Iraqi fighter 20 miles inside the no-fly zone. It also represents the 1st USAF air-to-air kill by an F-16.

EPA Vs THK
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_299.shtml

The poor MiG-29 has a kill ratio of 16:28!!! (Four of the kills were against Moldovian AF MiG-29Cs.) A few helicopters, two transports, one Cessna, etc.
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_283.shtml

Israeli and Pakistani claims and losses are difficult to confirm. Getting the exact figure on each one of them I think it’s just impossible. It was too long time ago, it was a different era, with many less independent sources and too much propaganda. The air to air battles were not that improbable like in today’s world so they were not receiving the same attention.

Israel
It’s generally accepted and I agree that Israel did not lose F-15s or F-16s or any other fighter in air to air combat since mid Seventies. In 1982, the all aspect infrared AIM-9L gave them a huge advantage on any MiG-21 type or downgraded MiG-23MS with previous generations missiles. Not to mention chasing Gazelle and Mil helicopters or Su-7 / Su-20/22 fighter bombers.
AIM-7F armed F-15s, E-2C support, better training, tactics and morale did the rest.
+/- 50 to 0 for the Israeli F-16 is highly acceptable.
Two or Three Hezbollah operated Ababil drones downed in 2006 with advanced heatseekers (Python 4 or 5 or 9M). Does it even matter?

Pakistan
+/- 10 aerial victories are generally accepted, with some transport aircraft included. Mostly against Afghan operated downgraded fighter bombers (MiG-23BN, Su-7 or Su-20/22) plus a couple of Soviet operated MiG-23s.
Together with the already mentioned advantage given by the all aspect AIM-9L, the Soviet RoE forbid their pilots to fight back in an organized way over the border with Pakistan (it was the Cold War!).
An F-16 went down hit by an air to air missile. However the actual shooter is covered by massive opposite propaganda. At the time, the Soviets were not willing to show any victory with an enemy they were not interested to confront. The pilots too were not encouraged to report any victory. Simply, the Soviet Union was not interested in fighting with Pakistan.
Some say that at one point, the Soviets decided to ambush the F-16s and a high flying MiG-23ML (the best air to air MiG-23 version) fourship formation acting like bombers backed up by other four MiG-23MLs did fool the F-16s in the trap and one F-16 was downed. Others say, the formation was actually composed of Soviet MiG-23ML, but the MiGs were armed with bombs hence they engaged the afterburner and bugged out. In the process, a -9L was fired and got the Pakistani Viper.

USAF
An Iraqi MiG-25 by a F-16D with a -120 in 1992, the AMRAAM was fired WVR
An Iraqi MiG-23 by a F-16C with a -120 in 1993, the AMRAAM was fired WVR
Four or five Yugoslav J-21/G-2 Jastreb/Galeb in 1994 by F-16Cs with -120s and -9Ms. The Serbs confirmed five losses, the USAF recognized four kills. The missing one should have crashed on the way back after being hit by a missile during the dogfight.
A MiG-29 claimed by a F-16C with a -120 in 1999 – In the MiG wreckage, parts of a Soviet made SAM were found, given the bad maintenance situation the MiGs were flying, I think it’s highly credible the MiG had a non functioning IFF/ECM system at the time and it was downed by the Yugoslavian air defense before any NATO aircraft could take any action about it.
An Iranian Ababil drone in 2009 with a -9M or -9X. Does this one even matter?
A story appeared on this site on how some F-16s pilots convinced an Iraqi MiG-23 pilot to eject instead of engage in 1991. Really? I really doubt it. It would be very nice to have some firsthand prospective. I would count it as a psychological warfare air to air victory.
Off topic:
Are the USAF pilots trained in performing psychological warfare in air to air too? What would they say “come on, man, eject! What are you going to do against us? Do you have a wife? Yes? Come on, think about her. Please eject, I’ll give you a piece of cake! I promise you” … and mostly I cannot imagine a fighter pilot giving away the time of his life to down an enemy in combat bulls*ing him on the radio instead of getting a firing position and calling fox 2.

Holland
An F-16AM downed a Serbian MiG-29 with a -120B in 1999.

Venezuela
Two or three victories against rebel counter-insurgency propeller aircraft in 1992 when a military rebellion was defeated by loyalist forces.

Greece – Turkey
Some air to air collisions. I would not count them as actual victories since none was cleared to fire or intended to ram the other jet so they were actually incidents.
One Turkish F-16D downed by a Greek Mirage 2000 with a R-550 heatseeker. Turkey confirms the loss, while Greece denies the victory. Again it was a sensitive diplomatic issue like the Soviets with Pakistan.
Different stories about the Greek pilot tracking the F-16 and inadvertently firing the missile…

Last note, the F-16s downed some balloons too. Do they have any air to air credit?

avon1944 wrote:

The first AIM-120A AMRAAM fired in combat downed an Iraqi MiG-25, 20 miles inside the no-fly zone. It also represents the 1st USAF air-to-air kill by an F-16. The first AMRAAM kill was by a USAF F-16 against an Iraqi MiG-25.

SOME REFERNCES;
PAF Vs Indian AF
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_324.shtml
http://home.comcast.net/~anneled/ColdWar.html

Yugoslavian Conflict
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_302.shtml

Iraqi Conflict
The first AIM-120A AMRAAM fired in combat downed an Iraqi fighter 20 miles inside the no-fly zone. It also represents the 1st USAF air-to-air kill by an F-16.

I worked on that F-16 and have pictures of the nose door telling the story.

Thank you for the aditional information, a little more substance behind raw numbers.

Quote:

Israeli and Pakistani claims and losses are difficult to confirm.

I would think the claims from Israel would be fairly accurate. Air combat happens over Lebanon or Syria, people flock to the crash site to see what has happen. It made news similar to the media circus at the crash site F-117 of the over former Yugoslavia. Remember, the crash sites that covered the area around the Bakaa Valley, Lebanon and Syria, not in Israel.

Quote:

Some air to air collisions. I would not count them as actual victories since none was cleared to fire or intended to ram the other jet so they were actually incidents.

I did count some crash or maneuver type kills, in particular the conflict between Greece and Turkey.

Quote:

Together with the already mentioned advantage given by the all aspect AIM-9L, the Soviet RoE forbid their pilots to fight back in an organized way over the border with Pakistan (it was the Cold War!).

Interesting.

Quote:

One Turkish F-16D downed by a Greek Mirage 2000 with a R-550 heatseeker. Turkey confirms the loss, while Greece denies the victory

Yes, the Magic Missile, I normally see it listed as the R550 Magic Missile. Not the IR variant of the Matra R530.

Quote:

Last note, the F-16s downed some balloons too. Do they have any air to air credit?

I did not count balloons, UAVs or, transport aircraft. I several years ago did compiled a listing of the number of airline/transport shot down by interceptors and one SAMs, it totaled 104 aircraft). Also counted on a separate list, the twenty-two airline/transport aircraft shot down by MANPADs (shoulder launch missiles), as of 1994.

Thanx Cali for the photo of the RNLAF F-16.

Cali wrote:

avon1944 wrote:

The first AIM-120A AMRAAM fired in combat downed an Iraqi MiG-25, 20 miles inside the no-fly zone. It also represents the 1st USAF air-to-air kill by an F-16. The first AMRAAM kill was by a USAF F-16 against an Iraqi MiG-25.

SOME REFERNCES;
PAF Vs Indian AF
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_324.shtml
http://home.comcast.net/~anneled/ColdWar.html

Yugoslavian Conflict
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_302.shtml

Iraqi Conflict
The first AIM-120A AMRAAM fired in combat downed an Iraqi fighter 20 miles inside the no-fly zone. It also represents the 1st USAF air-to-air kill by an F-16.

I worked on that F-16 and have pictures of the nose door telling the story.

Here's the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrYcxXIg5fI

I was intrigued the kill came from a D model. We took two seaters to the desert but for incentive rides. We wouldn't plan to take one into combat because they (184 and 393) didn't get the upgraded RWR and dispensers...

I was in the 34th with the wingman on that flight and got to see his un-edited radar tape.

Soon to be retired PACAF/CC Gen Gary North got that kill and commented on it recently at Wright Patt. He said people asked him why he used a "slammer" and not a "heater" at that short range. "My mother told be if I ever got into a fight to use the biggest rock I could find..." Cheers

southernphantom wrote:

Whoops, meant to say Eagles. Mental slip, I was writing something about F-4s at the time.

Boman wrote:

[Link pending approval]

Roughly 52:0 from the looks of it

The TuAF lost one to a Greek M2K, and Pakistan lost one to disputed causes, probably friendly fire, in the Soviet war in Afghanistan. That record should probably be 52:1, or 52:2 if you count friendly fire.

The PAF F-16 lost during the Afghan War was an own kill. The wingman fired the missile at one of the retreating fighters and it locked on to the F-16 since it was closer to the missile than the other fighters and heat signature of the F-16 made the sidewinder relock on the new target.

Forum: General F-16 forum

F-16 kill ratio?