Forum: Program and politics

LM could tell any partner nation that if they order in an LRIP cycle that they could pay FRP prices instead of LRIP.

I said "could", not "will".

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Quote:

What's to say that the government isn't willing to pony up more money, which its done for alot of other aircraft. Since it doesn't seem like you're actually familiar with the Canada at all. Look at the Cyclone program; 230 million overbudget, no helicopters delivered and the government is still committed.

Furthermore I'm fairly confident the government will buy at least a dozen more aircraft in future years. That's also the advantage of being a partner in the program rather than an FMS customer.

A**HOLE!!! I'm Canadian for goodness' sake. Anyway, I'm willing to overlook that little slight. The Toronto Star (go to TheStar.com) has an article published yesterday commenting on the F-35's. The Globe and Mail had an article 2-3 days ago detailing why Canada should buy armed drones.
Anyway, with the prices going up the way they are on these planes, no way is Canada going to buy the estimated amount. Yes there is a buffer, but not a few million dollars!!! The price of the F-35's are almost double.
And take a look at the ones who are considering buying the F-35. Almost every country cut their orders or say they are reconsidering.
What the heck, even the Obama Administration cut the number of planes. And quite frankly, I'm willing to buy three F-18E/F Super Hornets for the price of one F-35. The specs match Canada's needs better too.

flighthawk128 wrote:

I'm willing to buy three F-18E/F Super Hornets for the price of one F-35. The specs match Canada's needs better too.

No they don't, we've been over this 100x. You should do some research before spewing non sense. Also, armed drones don't replace fighter jets, they compliment them. We'll buy both if it comes down to it.

The price fo a F-35 has not doubled since Canada did their study. Get real and do some research.

Obama has not cut the total number of F-35s, just the rate at which they will buy LRIP planes.

You cannot buy 3 F-18s for one F-35 (open a budget doc for goodness sake) and quite drinking the coolaid)

edit... press submit accidentally.

flighthawk128 wrote:

Quote:

What's to say that the government isn't willing to pony up more money, which its done for alot of other aircraft. Since it doesn't seem like you're actually familiar with the Canada at all. Look at the Cyclone program; 230 million overbudget, no helicopters delivered and the government is still committed.

Furthermore I'm fairly confident the government will buy at least a dozen more aircraft in future years. That's also the advantage of being a partner in the program rather than an FMS customer.

A**HOLE!!! I'm Canadian for goodness' sake. Anyway, I'm willing to overlook that little slight. The Toronto Star (go to TheStar.com) has an article published yesterday commenting on the F-35's. The Globe and Mail had an article 2-3 days ago detailing why Canada should buy armed drones.

Yes. Doesn't mean they are correct or fully versed in these matters. When was the last time the RCAF bought a fighter aircraft? What sort of expertise do they have on this matter?

flighthawk128 wrote:

Anyway, with the prices going up the way they are on these planes, no way is Canada going to buy the estimated amount. Yes there is a buffer, but not a few million dollars!!! The price of the F-35's are almost double.

As others pointed out, the cost hasn't doubled, or even increased more than 10% from the 2009 study that was submitted to cabinet. The Government's buffer works out to about $5 million dollars per aircraft.

flighthawk128 wrote:

And take a look at the ones who are considering buying the F-35. Almost every country cut their orders or say they are reconsidering.

What... Italy? I think its a testament to the program's survivability that a country facing a massive debt default decided to cut only 30% of its order. As you'll soon find, most other countries have committed to the program too.

flighthawk128 wrote:

What the heck, even the Obama Administration cut the number of planes.

No they didn't. They decided to rearrange the purchases so that there are building less planes during the R&D phase, and more when the design is mature.

flighthawk128 wrote:

And quite frankly, I'm willing to buy three F-18E/F Super Hornets for the price of one F-35. The specs match Canada's needs better too.

You can buy 1 1/2 F/A-18s for an F-35 (barely), which will be obsolete in US service after 2030. So then how do you suggest we fund the upgrades, or do we only get about 14 years out of a 12 billion dollar capital purchase? Furthermore how does an aircraft with shorter range, inferior sensors, aerodynamic performance and higher maintenance costs "better meets our specifications"?

Did some counting a while ago. May be interesting who favours drones for Canada more than manned aircraft.
Canada did use the UAV SAGEM Sperwer as well, figures either are specifically in a Dutch situation.

Hope someone will correct me when interpretated wrong, or made some mistakes calculating these figures

SAGEM UAV Sperwer

In service: 12 years (operational: 9 years)
Operational service: 2002 (jan)-2011 (june)

Order: €81.68 million
Per Sperwer (all in): €2.4 million

Number: 34

Lost in Afghanistan: 2
Total lost: 11
Percentage lost (12 years): ±33%
Lost operational flying (9 years): ±33%

Total flying hours: 1151 hours
Lost Sperwer per total flying hours: 34 Sperwers > 1 per 33.85 flying hours

Average flying costs per hour: Based on 34 UAV Sperwers, procurement costs €81,68 million)
Per flying hour (1153 hours, 12 years.): €70,964.37 = $92,161.5

* Flying costs per hour: Not included > Personnel costs, fuel, maintenance etc.

Missions:
Uruzgan, Afghanistan: 2006-2009
Number UAV Sperwers: 8

Flights: 285
Flying hours: 713

Lost: 2
Lost operational in Aghanistan: 1 per 89.1 flying hours

Lost factor
F16 (213): Lost: 33 > Percentage: 18.3% > Operational flying: +35 years

Sagem Sperwer (34): Lost: 11 > Percentage: 33% > Operational flying: 9 years

Aero Star (5): Lost: 2 >Percentage: 40% > Operational flying: 1 year
* Plus one AeroStar heavily damaged, send back to Israel

* The Israeli Aero Star was rented for use in Afghanistan one year, operated by civil personel (UK)

MacKay affirms stealth fighter purchase to military, industry audience 24 Feb 2012

http://www.alaskahighwaynews.ca/article ... late=cpart

"OTTAWA - Defence Minister Peter MacKay is affirming Canada's plan to buy a fleet of F-35 stealth fighter jets.

He made the pledge before an audience of hundreds, including many defence industry executives, at a major military conference in Ottawa.

MacKay also said the Harper government won't pay a penny more than budgeted for the fleet of 65 stealth fighter jets.

"We have been clear that we will operate within that budget," he said in a speech to the Conference of Defence Associations annual meeting. "And we will give our air men and women the best available aircraft, which I believe is the fifth-generation, F-35 Lightning II."....

More Canadian cost confusion:

"Credibility of DND Spokespeople Undercut by Six Different Prices for the F-35, According to Newly Released Defence Department Report"
Ottawa Citizen | 2/29/2012

"OTTAWA – Defence Department officials recognized months ago that the absence of a single, authoritative cost for each F-35 fighter jet to be purchased was a major communications problem – even as they bandied around a range of figures themselves, internal documents show."

"...the Defence Department has been tirelessly tracking what the media is writing about the jets.

The information, which includes blogs and Twitter, is compiled into reports delivered to senior officials every few weeks."

"“Adding to the criticism is confusion over how costs should be calculated, with multiple and conflicting estimates detracting from the credibility of official sources,” the report reads."

"The report goes on to note that during the previous month, no less than six prices had been cited by different sources.

These included a $65-million figure from manufacturer Lockheed Martin, $75 million from the Canadian Defence Department, $103 million from the head of the Pentagon’s Cost Assessment Office, $113 million from a U.S. congressional committee, $137 million from the Israeli military and $148 million from parliamentary budget officer Kevin Page.

The report then notes that according to the U.S. Defense Department, “the cost of the F-35 has risen by 85 per cent since the program began – from $59.1 million per unit in 2001 to $108.7 million in October 2011.”

"“The first 28 F-35s have overshot their cost targets by $771 (million) combined, or about $27.5 million per plane,” reads one email attaching a relevant article in July 2011."

"While the Conservative government initially said Canada would purchase 65 F-35s at about $75 million each, but it has since backed away from those statements. Rather, it says $9 billion has been set aside to replace Canada’s aging fleet of CF-18s, with another $7 billion for maintenance over 20 years."

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2012/02/ ... nt-report/

Support cited for F-35 fighter after joint meeting Fri Mar 2, 2012 By Andrea Shalal-Esa

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/ ... LL20120303

* Countries gave program full support - sources

* Meeting sponsor Canada cites "good progress"

* Partners plan to make joint meeting an annual event

"WASHINGTON, March 2 (Reuters) - The United States and eight other countries helping to develop the new F-35 Joint Strike Fighter underscored their full and continued support for the program, according to two sources who attended a gathering hosted by Canada.

Despite U.S. plans to put off orders for 179 planes over the next five years and a steady drip of news about technical problems and developmental issues, a statement issued by Canada on Friday cited "good progress" on the program....

...The two sources said all nine countries underscored their full and continued support for what one described as the "backbone of allied defense in the free world"....

..."Our support of this program is clear," said Pentagon spokeswoman Lieutenant Colonel Melinda Morgan.

Navy Vice Admiral David Venlet, the official who manages the Pentagon's costliest weapons program, and acting acquisition chief Frank Kendall gave updates about development milestones and testing of the new warplane, as did officials from Lockheed...."

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Forum: Program and politics

Canada convenes international meeting over troubled F-35