Forum: F-35 Lightning II

arkadyrenko wrote:

As for the JSF STOVL. Look at the F-35A,B,C. Apart from the wings, the body appears to be by and large identical among the three variants. That is intentional, the program was supposed to create common aircraft.

Now thing about this, how many other fighters have airframes that look like a STOVL aircraft? Not many. Furthermore, most other fighters don't have the luxury of relying on one of the most powerful engines ever attacked to a fighter's airframe to overcome aerodynamic drag. Therefore, those fighters need better aerodynamic optimization, or to put it in other words, they can't afford to loose as much aerodynamic performance.

Put those facts together and it becomes clear: the STOVL variant has affected the other two variants of the JSF, and that affect has probably been for the worse.

Frankly, you've done here is precisely what my earlier comment was pointing out as being incrorrect. You have no concrete evidence to back up any of this except your "intuition." Are you an aerospace designer or designer participating in the F-35 program, or even spoken to someone involved? It doesn't sound like it. I think there are other, just as compelling explanations for the F-35's size and shape: carrying 2X 2000 lbs bombs/JSOW internally + fuel + engines was probably the most significant. Clearance for an 2000 lbs bomb internally adds quite a bit of space. This seems to be common trait for Lockheed stealth aircraft: The F-22 is considered a "bulky" aircraft compared to the YF-23, as was the F-117. F-22s on the other hand had to carry AMRAAMs and at most SDBs.

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spazsinbad wrote:

'maus92' you can fixate on the FOB issues but the USMC are planning otherwise as has often been pointed out on this forum. Why are the USMC changing strategy? Which is being tested somewhat in Bold Alligator 2012 which will include a CVN.

Long term I see the SRVL or just VLs being used on CVNs when such exercises are held. But as always early days etc. In this way the CVN will support the F-35B hopping from LHA to FOB to CVN and any combination of these three landing/refuelling/re-arming sites. How good is that? Twisted Evil

F-35Bs will see an Nimitz deck about as much as the harriers do. The reason the Marines bought some F-35Cs is that the operating profile proved to be too disruptive to carrier operations. CATOBAR operations have to grind to a halt for a F-35B to take off or SRVL.

Last edited by spazsinbad on Feb 06, 2012 - 10:00 AM; edited 5 times in total

bjr1028, I notice you have not mentioned VL (Vertical Landing) - what a pity. What a disruption a VL will be to ordinary CVN ops. Really disruptive as we saw demonstrated on USS Wasp. And let us not forget the really disruptive demonstratoin of Harrier ops all those years ago on an old US Aircraft Carrier 1976-7 USS F.D.R. Yeah what a disruption. And how disruptive is an F-35B takeoff down the angle - geez everyone will have to scatter eh. And of course the 'very long thread' has done this to death. Whatever:

http://174.132.114.222/~larryb44/cv42.com/?page_id=46

“...Another first was racked up by Franklin D. Roosevelt when, on 4 October 1976, the first overseas operational commitment on a carrier for the AV-8A Harrier began when VMA-231 embarked aboard for a Sixth Fleet deployment. On 13 January 1977, two other Harriers made bow-on approaches and landing aboard the carrier, marking the first time a fixed wing aircraft had made a bow-on, downwind landing aboard a carrier at sea....”
&
http://174.132.114.222/~larryb44/cv42.c ... cruise.jpg

"AV-8A Harriers of Marine Attack Squadron (VMA) 231 pictured on the deck of the carrier with other Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 19 aircraft during the final deployment of USS Franklin D. Roosevelt during 1976–1977."
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For sure the USMC have blinked to obtain some F-35Cs but what the heck. Soon enough there will be a trial on the 'empty' decks of a CVN just to see what is possible.

US Marines eye UK JSF shipborne technique 15/May/07 Flight International

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... nique.html

“A shipborne rolling vertical landing (SRVL) technique being developed by the UK for the Lockheed Martin F-35B is being eyed by the US Marine Corps as a way to facilitate operation of short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) Joint Strike Fighters from US Navy aircraft carriers.

The F-35B is scheduled to replace USMC Boeing F/A-18s and concerns have arisen that integration of the STOVL JSF with conventional US Navy fighters will disrupt carrier landing operations....

...An SRVL approach exploits the ability of the STOVL JSF to use vectored thrust to slow the aircraft while retaining the benefit of wingborne lift....

...For the USMC, the technique would allow a conventional approach to a short land-ing on the carrier and could ease integration of the F-35B with US Navy F/A-18E/Fs.“We continue to work with the navy on this,” Castellaw says, pointing out the STOVL Harrier has been operated successfully alongside US Navy fighters as part of an air wing the carrier USS Roosevelt.”
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The STOVL Joint Strike Fighter—From a Harrier Skeptic 2002 Captain A.R. Behnke USMC

http://dodreports.com/pdf/ada520417.pdf

“...Carrier: On a carrier the operations of STOVL recovery and respot are greatly simplified. In addition, vertical landing pads on the port side of the carrier take up less area than the landing area required for normal carrier aircraft. This facilitates the simultaneous operations of launch, recovery, and respot. Therefore the flight deck is never fouled for any single operation, thus reducing the impact on sortie generation. For STOVL, the limiting factor of sortie generation then becomes aircraft servicing rate. Today’s CTOL carrier airwing has reached a near optimum level of mission perform-ance. That is, no increase in airwing size or availability will result in increased maximum sorties attainable....”
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Marine Corps demonstrates F-35B at sea By Dave Majumdar - Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday Oct 18, 2011

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/20 ... ea-101811/

"...Cordell said that one piece of good news is that the “outflow” from the jet’s exhaust while hovering is less intense than expected. “It’s counterintuitive, but the jet has a less harsh environment hovering at 40 feet than it does at 100 feet,” he said. Engineering models had predicted the outcome, but skeptics — Cordell included — had doubted those conclusions.

The hazard zone around the jet therefore has shrunk to about the same size as that of a Harrier, he said.

Similarly, the “outwash” on take-off is far less harsh than anticipated, Cordell said.

A second set of sea trials will be done early next year, Cordell said. Those trials will put the F-35B’s mission systems and weaponry to the test. The team will also test night operations at sea, he said.

Later, the F-35B will return to the sea for a third time to conduct operational testing in around the August of 2013, Cordell added.

This initial set of sea trials for the F-35B is as much about the ship as it is about the aircraft...."
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Vertical landings hit the mark in F-35B’s tests By Kate Wiltrout The Virginian-Pilot © Oct 20, 2011

http://hamptonroads.com/2011/10/vertica ... 35bs-tests

“...Engineers initially thought the jet would create far more turbulence on the flight deck because it's much more powerful than the Harrier. Cordell said for the first few flights off the Wasp, the shooter – the flight deck crewmember who taps the flight deck, signaling final permission for pilots to takeoff – was told to tuck his head down, run to the ship's island (superstructure) & hold on for the actual launch. After a num-ber of takeoffs, Cordell said, the shooter said that precaution seemed unnecessary. Couldn't he just hold onto one of the metal rings set into the flight deck, like he did when Harriers launched? The engineers assented.

Engineers were also concerned about the forward-most flight deck crewmember – the bow-waver, who signals to the shooter that there's no interference before takeoff. "He is right at the point where the wing is demanding the most lift possible, where you'd expect outwash and potential problems. He stands there as if he has very few cares in the world," Cordell said. Adm. Kevin Scott, the commander of Expeditionary Strike Group Two, seconded that point. "I didn't believe it at first. So I walked up there and stood next to him. It was really impressive," Scott told reporters...."
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US Marines to split F-35 purchase between STOVL, carrier variants

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... rrier.html

"...“When we set the requirement in for STOVL aircraft our hope was we would be able to, some day, fly some of those aircraft off [large-deck] aircraft carriers,” Amos said, testifying before the Senate Armed Services Committee on 8 March. "That's yet to be seen whether that would be possible so in the meantime it would seem prudent that we should buy some number of C variants even early on so we can begin to transition our force there.”..."
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And just for luck - because the F.D.R. is immediately below:

AV-8A Harrier Tests [onboard USS F.D.R. 1977]

http://ussfranklindroosevelt.com/?page_id=2264

“Her final cruise, which concluded on 21 April 1977, included the embarkation of AV-8A Harriers of Marine Attack Squadron (VMA) 231, the historic “Ace of Spades” squadron, marking the first deployment of Vertical Short Take Off and Landing aircraft on board a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier.”...
&
“From June 1976 to April 1977, VMA-231 deployed with 14 AV-8As aboard the USS Franklin D. Roosevelt (CV-42). This deployment demonstrated that the Harrier could be completely integrated into normal CV air operations. Almost every conceivable takeoff and recovery option was flown: upwind, downwind, crosswind, and before, during, and after re-spots. The Harrier demonstrated not only that VSTOL operations could be conducted within the rigid framework of cyclic operations, but that because of VSTOL’s inherent flexibility, a carrier can launch and recover at any time and steam wherever desired while achieving a combat capability that does not exist when using only conventional aircraft. A STOVL jet is unrestrained by launch/recovery times and mission permitting, could fill in gaps created by the CV cycle. On 13 January 1977, two other Harriers made bow-on approaches and landing aboard the carrier, marking the first time a fixed wing aircraft had made a bow-on, downwind landing aboard a carrier at sea.”...
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Last Photo: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... t_1976.jpg

"A Hawker Siddley AV-8A Harrier of Marine attack squadron VMA-231 Ace of Spades landing on the aircraft carrier USS Franklin D. Roosevelt (CV-42) in 1976/77. VMA-231 was assigned to Carrier Air Wing 19 (CVW-19) aboard the FDR for a deployment to the Mediterranean Sea from 4 October 1976 to 21 April 1977."
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The Corps Goes Vertical with The Harrier – August 26, 2011 By Ben Kristy[/b]
http://navalaviationnews.navylive.dodli ... e-harrier/
And...

http://navalaviationnews.navylive.dodli ... USSFDR.png

"In the winter of 1976-1977, 14 VMA-231 AV-8As deployed aboard USS Franklin D. Roosevelt (CV 42) to test the ability of a V/STOL aircraft to operate as part of a full carrier air wing. The tests showed the Harrier was fully capable of operating alongside non-V/STOL aircraft. (Photo from National Marine Corps Museum)"
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http://www.scribd.com/Charlie_November/ ... 58-Harrier

lamoey wrote:

As is often the case, economy is very likely to influence any decision made to attack or defend any given territory. While China’s internal consumption is growing fast, its economy would most likely be hurt badly by any unilateral action on their part towards the US or any ally of the US.

http://www.starmass.com/china_review/imports_exports/china_top_export_market.htm

Looking at the Chinas export by country from 2007, most of the top 10 would evaporate overnight. Even Hong Kong would probably close to vanish as that is most likely unfinished goods re-exported by Hong Kong.

My guess is that over time China and Taiwan will find it economically advantages to evolve closer ties which would reduce the threat of war between the two. That may in turn lead to a shift in the balance in the area that I won’t speculate about right now.

The point of econimic realities overruling the dreams of military adventure for Chinese generals is examinied well here....
http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedin ... art-factor

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Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Value of STOVL jets, Harrier and F-35B questioned. Again.