Forum: Off-topic

Last edited by trailmix on Nov 30, 2004 - 07:33 PM; edited 1 time in total

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_scouts_111604,00.html?ESRC=dod.nl

Well, my dad sent me this news link and I thought I would get some opinions from people related to and interested in the military. The article, in short, says that the US Military will no longer support or sponsor Boy Scout programs on the basis that the Boy Scouts teach "religion" as a part of the program and the oath says:
"On my honor,
I will do my best,
to do my duty,
to god and my country,
to obey the scout law,
to help other people at all times,
to keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake and morally striaght."

Now, I am an eagle scout and a proud assistant leader of a troop. I see nothing wrong with having some moral basis, and even if you are an atheist, your duty to God (who in this case just doesn't exist) and country should still be present. Not to mention the whole, physcially strong and help other people; I mean teching kids citrizenship and how to be civil is what makes our nation stand out in this world. Imagine thousands of boys between 13 and 17 years of age volunteering to collect and bring aid to disaster victims throughout the USA, participating in habitat for humanity and food shelter programs. Imagine young people who know the value of good health and have some practical skills like wilderness survival, first aid, and emergency preparedness.

Now that the ACLU has applied pressure, these boys are going to miss out on the wonderful programs at military bases throughout the world. My personal favorite was a camporee they had every year at West Point where we had to do PT and march around and could hang out with the cadets. Now these events are going to get scrapped all because one little word is in the oath.

So I ask, what is this world coming to!?

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trailmix, I agree completely!!! Is it just me, or is "In God We Trust" on all US currency? Are witnesses in US courts required to swear to tell the truth "So help me God"? Doesn't every member of the US armed forces have to take their oath to their country "So help me God" as well? Didn't the Supreme Court also say that we could keep "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? If this is the case, I fail to see how the BSA's Oath conflicts with the US Constitution. This is a bunch of BS and it needs to be addressed by the US Congress, President, and Supreme Court. Yes, all three branches of government need to get into the act! I've had enough of these people butting into peoples' lives and business where they have absolutely no business themselves!
In the interest of full disclosure, I have to say that I am a former boyscout, though I only attained the rank of First Class. Scouts helped me in so many ways that I can't even list them all. trailmix, congradulations on having earned your Eagle Scout status and thank you for giving back to your community and serving our country by working with the kids!

Salute fellow Eagle. I picked my sn because I too hold that rank

Quote:

Didn't the Supreme Court also say that we could keep "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Actually the Supreme Court didn't hear the case. Something about the fathers custody. I do agree with you that word God in so many of our government functions has a proper place. However you must also consider the other side. If my God happened to be the devil, that would cause a bit of a conflict with the majority of kids who are christian, and participate in this program.

Now as far as the kids not having the chance to attend scouts, I haven't heard one way or the other. It is an extracaricular activity, just as is going to church on base. So it stands to reason that unless they kick out all the chaplans, and remove the churches from all the bases. The scouting program is safe and sound.

I'm one of the ones that voted "NO, the military should be involved with the Boy Scouts."

To preface this, I have no great love for the American Communist Liberty Union, so I'm not without prejudice.
God was the center of the lives of the men who founded this country, they had prayer in Congress the same day they passed the first amendment. In short, the original intent of the Founding Fathers for the first amendment was not to keep religion out of everything, it was to keep the government from legislating religion into submission, as had been done in England and most of Europe. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has chosen to ignore our Founder's original intent when interpreting the law.

My country has a strong, godly heritage, of which I am not ashamed, but rather am quite proud of.

For the Boy Scouts, or any other organization, to have a moral tone, is not a problem. The last time I checked, as has been pointed out before by others in this topic, "In God We Trust" is still on US currency. For the military to give assistance to the Boy Scouts through programs is no problem, as long as such programs are equally available to other such groups of different religious tone. The military is not promoting any religion by giving aid to the Boy Scouts, any more than the government is promoting my church by using it as a polling place. True, some could take it as promotion of religion, but some are also illogical. Wink

Freedom OF religion, not FROM religion...

Cylon

EXACTLY.

Boy Scouts of America does require some sort of Religious belief for membership, I remember an Eagle scout got the boot because he came out about being an athiest. However, the Military should still provide programs for the Boys in BSA... I was never a part of that(I left scouts because of the whole religion thing, and my troop did nothing for the most part, so I do martial arts instead), but I wish I had done more of that sort of thing when I was younger(12, 13ish). If the Boyscouts of America were a little less discriminating, i'd probably still be a part of them. Everyone has a different moral code that they follow, leaving someone out because they don't believe in a higher power, in my very humble opinion is wrong.

Quote:

God was the center of the lives of the men who founded this country...

Not nessisarily, the founding fathers, for the most part, were deists(Who, are/were not very Christian at all), and often critisized(Especially Thomas Jefferson... the irony of it!) as being athiests. Christianity wasn't nearly as major as it was in the 17th Century up north in the USA until the 2nd Great Awakening.

Even so, it has nothing to do with the military, just the scouts restricting membership.

Quote:

Boy Scouts of America does require some sort of Religious belief for membership, I remember an Eagle scout got the boot because he came out about being an athiest.

Well dammerung, I am not sure where you were a Boy Scout, but the Boy Scouts of America do NOT require any religous belief for membership. As a matter of fact, the only thing you have to do to be a member is pay the $70 annual membership fee. As far as rank advancements, those are dependent only on skills such as knots, first aid, and emergency preparedness; as well as community service and leadership experience. As for your second comment, they wouldnt "boot" an Eagle Scout because he's allready gone as far as he could in the system. It would be like booting a General because he won't shoot a gun.

Now onto your comments about restricting membership. The only way that the Boy Scouts restrict membership is by age. You have to be between 11 and 18 years old to be a member. There is nothing about having to believe in a particular religion and anything religously oriented is completely optional (i.e. church service, god and country awards etc.) But the best thing I can say about his organization is that it teaches young people to live by the 12 points of the scout law as: "trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent." I think that if everyone lived their live by these standards, the world would be a much better place.

Before you try to crucify me for the last point (a scout being reverent) look it up in the dictionary and find that its meaning is not purely religous in nature.

~mix

I won't crucify you for anything, but I do know for a fact that the scouts do require some sort of religious belief... Not nessisarily Christian, but they don't accept agnostics or athiests... That's what the ACLU is all riled up about. I like the ACLU's cause, but I think they're too extreme.

http://www.scouting.org/jamboree/2001/facts/sheets/06.htm

"The Boy Scouts of America recognizes the importance of religious training but is nonsectarian in its attitude toward that training. All boys have a place in the Scouting movement. "

ALL BOYS... really, its not a REQUIREMENT. You'll see that 98% of scouts participate in the religious side of things, which is proportionate to the 98% of americans that participate in religion (~2% athiestic). After 15 years with the scouts, I know that on the membership card there is no checkbox for "do you believe in god?"

Quote:

the original intent of the Founding Fathers for the first amendment was not to keep religion out of everything, it was to keep the government from legislating religion into submission, as had been done in England and most of Europe. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has chosen to ignore our Founder's original intent when interpreting the law.

I'm glad someone else actually spoke up on the original intent for the first amendment, I compleatly agree. Very Happy

Going off topic, the quote above could also be good for supporting goverment funding of religion based schools, the original intent of the first ammendment was to prevent the discrimination of allowing some religions and not others, that dosen't mean we have to seperate the government from religion altogether.

If being atheist is believing that there is no god then tecnically it could be considered a religion.

One definition of religion is: A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

The principle of an athiest is that there is no god and if the other descriptions apply then atheism is technically a religion. So if atheisim is a religion, why does the government support it more than the other religions? Doesn't THAT go against the first ammendment?

Quote:

Boy Scouts of America does require some sort of Religious belief for membership

I am in Boy scouts myself and I have never seen any religion requirement. There is actually several boys in my troop who are athiest, during any religious event they have the option to listen, not listen, or go do something else until the religious event is over, no one is forcing them to be religious.

By the way, did you know that if you have earned your eagle rank and you go into the armed forces you automaticly come in as a E-3 unsted of a E-1? Very Happy

I also heard somewhere that the eagle badge is the only civilian medal you can display on your uniform (in the army). Anyone know if there is a ribbon for the Eagle Scouts in the Air Force?

~mix
p.s.-happy holidays!

Random comments to priot postings:

1) Almost anything will let you enter the military as an E-3. Two years of college, signing to a longer initial enlistment, attaining Warrant Officer in the Civil Air Patrol...I wasn't aware of the Eagle Scout condition but it wouldn't surprise me.

2) Two brothers (I think) in California were denied entry into the BSA some years ago because they activley announced their atheist status...and if I recall the courts upheld the BSA's position.

3) The military commissioning oath says "I solemnly swear (or affirm)", meaning the person has the choice, and the "So help me God" at the end is completely optional.

Personally, I am an atheist, but I agree the ACLU is whacked on this one. I get so tired of folks being offended and making others change their ways rather than just quietly acknowledging differences and dealing with them. I never was offended that the Pledge of Allegiance had "under God" in it. It never bother me that our currency has "In God We Trust". I just go my own way and recognize that is the accepted differences between everybody that makes this country great.

ACLU - Bah Humbug!

Sorry about the double post...have deleted the body below

Forum: Off-topic

What is this world coming to?